I think the Bel Air's T I5 is an interesting engine....but it may have it's drawbacks. Any car that uses it will require a high firewall (very un-Camaro like)...the engine is pretty tall.

Also, several months ago I had a conversation with someone who drove the Bel Air concept. He was completely unimpressed with the engine's lack of smoothness. Let's hope "Powertrain" gets that sorted out before production starts.

 

Well, it was still a concept engine built just for a show car, I'm sure the production version will have all the bugs worked out.

 

That's the only problem I see with an inline engine. Do you guys realize how long the strokes are on GM's 4 cyinders? The Ecotec is 3.724" and the Vortec I6/5/4 has a stroke of 4.016" That's straight up and down, not at an angle like in a V engine. I don't see how they could fit that in a performance car

 

You put the engine in at an angle like BMW does with the I6 M3

 

The Ecotec is less than an inch taller than the LS1.

 

no, it should only be an option, not a standard and surely not the real deal. there should ALWAYS be a V8 option in a camaro. i still wouldnt buy it though.

 

Well...of course not. No one in their right mind would suggest that Camaro not have a V8.

 

Guys if you think adding a 4 cylinder will change the Camaros image, man, no. The only way to change an import guy's mind about the fbody is to take them for a ride, beat the hell out of a turbo civic with exhaust and intake and be like "Man, this car is bone stock, it's how they come from the factory." That is the only way, otherwise if it has a 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16: we're still all mullet heads that never got past 4th grade and can not hold a job. Dont get pissed at me for saying that, its just the truth about what they think (lol unless you called the 4 cylinder the Camaro Type R, esp using yellow lettering).

Im not behind the 4 cylinder anyways, there's a time and a place for everything and this is neither of them. Every once in a while you just have that gut feeling that something isnt right, and this is one of those times. And if for some god unknow reason they decide to do this, at least turbo charge the freakin thing. Nothing against superchargers, but if they're that gung-ho about breaking into the import market with the fbody (jesus that sounds wrong) it needs a turbo.

 

I don't know Chuck!, call me slow...but I believe that I have missed your point.

Are you saying that the only way that we can prove we are not 4th grade "edumacated" mullet heads is to take import drivers for a ride and show them the LS1 is faster from 0-60 than a 1.8L Civic. Ummm.....don't you think that they already know that?


Everyone that buys an import (in fact most that buy them new), isn't some dipsh!t ricer. I'd bet some of them are actually car enthusiasts that know what they are buying. And those who aren't enthusiasts, know what they like....and that's what they buy.


And now we have become so clever that we can arbitrarily decide which segment should not be compelled to buy a Camaro in order to protect some undefined reputation.

BTW, what is this reputation that we need to hold and protect from the so called "ricers"? And why would a fresh influx of new customers hurt the Camaro?

 

naw.....we agree on a lot more than we disagree. It is obvious we both have a passion for the Camaro and want it to be the best.

As you can see by this thread, there are NO easy answers. Regardless of what a poll may say on this site, it is likely that the results on other sites may differ. No question about it, the next Camaro HAS to be V8, HAS to be faster and more powerful than the '02 (and lead the class in overall performance) HAS to be recognizable as a Camaro.....and HAS to do it at a Chevrolet price.

 

(wow...I hate threads that go to a gazillion pages....takes me forever to read thru the various sites!)

Now...I'm not entirely sure why this post was put here....but let me tell you some history.

a while back, we were talking.....about 'what ifs' -- and I missed one meeting where there was a thought about a base 4 cyl engine rather than a V6. Someone made the comment in this meeting that " .....'redplanet' will throw a rod when he hears this!"

And....my first reaction when I heard about this was "no way." But then I started to think about it....what would happen if we offered a 'base' Ecotec' where a young guy or gal (who doesn't have the bucks for insuring a high performance V8) could buy a very reasonably priced Camaro...go down to his or her dealer...and buy a turbocharger that bolted right on...and was warranted by GM? (in my book, we need to be thinking of ways to make it easier for you guys and gals to do mods using validated stuff....validated and warranted by GM.......) Like it or not, a car has to find a way to keep a loyal following...and in the passenger car market today...which is continuing a decline, you'd better find a way to do that. (lest your buyers become older and older and older.........and that spells trouble.) So the way to get a younger buyer, in part, is insurability. The insurance industry is not suddenly going to become 'benevolent' and drop the rates anytime soon on a high performance car....just isn't gonna happen. One of the reasons the tuner market has been so successful is that you can purchase a 4 cyl coupe or sedan at a low price....tune it to kingdom come...and still have reasonable insurance....'cause the insurance company still thinks it has 120hp, not 450hp!

So....not positive that this is why Z284ev. started this post, but I know we talked about it when I visited Chicagoland........and it certainly lit a few fuses!

now.....opinions have been thrown back and forth on this site since the beginning of time......and sometimes those opinions have been based in fact............and other times (more often than not) opinions have not been based in fact......

As I've said in person and on the radio and on the TV and on this and many other sites many many times...there are tons of reasons why the 4th gen did not sell in huge numbers. One of the reasons is that the style did not change in 10 years.....(this, in a segment where styling is the number one motivator) (that is a fact, by the way---the part about the number one reason for purchase........CAMIP data)

BUT........did anyone ever take the total number of Camaros sold by generation and apply it to the total PASSENGER car market and look at the penetration percent?

Please do..................

I think you'd be surprised to find that the 4th gen was not the failure that many on this site think it was. (it sold well over 100,000 a year early in the lifecycle...not including Firebird) Don't forget, the total passenger car market has declined over the past twenty years as buyers moved to trucks. Moreover, in 1967, Honda didn't even build a car for the United States....Nissan was Datsun, Toyota was unheard of in many states.......and many people who had heard of 'em called 'em "TIE - otas" and Mitsubishi, Lexus, Infinity, Isuzu, Kia, Hyundai, etc were not even thought of in terms of a network of dealerships in the United States......................so.........you have to look at a much LARGER picture before making assumptions............

NOW.......

The next gen Camaro has to sell a reasonable volume over the lifecyle.......and there are ways to do that. Yup...styling has to change and be updated....Mustang had updates every two/three years including front and rear caps, sheetmetal, interior, wheels, etc. Did I want to change the 4th gen stylingwise? BOY HOWDY! (but remember that fellow whose name started with a Z?) The money we did get went into powertrain improvements and things like traction control and electronic braking, etc......and the car has to improve in all ways......and still be 'class leading' in terms of overall performance, quality, reliability, etc.

Marketing/advertising has been beaten to death by a lot of people....but they don't see the bigger picture...and they weren't privy to internal numbers and a lot of info. It's one thing to be able to talk about it...another all together when you're the guy or gal that has responsibility to the stockholder. (I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about Sr. Mgmt.) Like it or not, GM is in the business to make money.........the stockholder demands it..........get used to it.

The original success of the Camaro...wayyyyyy back in the fall of '66 I believe was the total package.....a kick-*** styled car that rode great (read the literature from back then) handled well, gave you performance (if you so wished) that approached Corvette at a more reasonable price point that just about everyone could afford. Furthermore, it allowed you to tailor a car "just for you." with a gajillion options. The option thing ain't gonna happen, guys and gals, because 1967 was not 2003. The world has changed and you'd bankrupt yourself out of the chute.....so we have to get smarter at offering 'packages' along with "Regular Production Accessories" (which we are now doing on several truck lines....the truck is built without the 'accessory' but it shows on the invoice and the accessory is shipped to the dealer for installation...........

Furthermore, the car has to be built to make it easy to add performance items......(and I won't go into that right now.....for confidentiality reasons........)

.............. (whew..........)..........

I guess I'm all over the place in my thoughts as I type this........but had to chime in.........

 

Evening Red,

I like the idea of supporting the Camaro with more 'aftermarket' accessories, but would an Ecotec Camaro be stepping on toes? If the performance of the V8 Camaro is going to be better than the 4th gen, 130 HP - 320 HP is a huge gap (not accounting for the underrated LS1 horsepower numbers). Would an Ecotec base model hurt the performance and technology in a V6 Camaro? On top of that, would it step on the toes of the Cobalt/Cobalt SS? Would the Cobalt/SS take *too much* sales from an Ecotec Camaro? People tend to go for compact cars when they want 4-cyl. performance.

Makes one wonder if the size of a potential next-gen Camaro is being hinted at here...

 

I like a lot of what I am hearing about the future Camaro here... but I honestly think that a base V6 is more appropriate, and can still offer everything being presented here... factory backed, dealer installed turbo / supercharging, etc...

Also, I'm glad the styling updates are being addressed. To me, this would go a step away from a retro theme (I hope)... I'd think a retro styled debut would "paint yourself into a corner" as far as future (and hopefully frequent) styling freshenings go.

It's good to hear a lot of stuff is being discussed where it counts.

 

Wow! I'm surprised you didn't go over the character limit on that post.

Believe it or not...in between making a living and catering to every whim from my wife and kids.....I spend alot of time thinking about what would make Camaro a better car...a more successful car.

For some of the same reasons you mentioned, I started thinking about Ecotec and Camaro sometime ago..... http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...ghlight=Ecotec......especially, since GM seemed poised to turn Ecotec from merely basic motivation, to an honest to Betsy, highly tunable performance choice.

After our conversation in Chicago....I started thinking about it alittle harder.

Why here?

Because this forum is the Mecca of all things regarding future Camaros. We have the liveliest debates and most advanced idea sharing on this topic, than anywhere else on the net....maybe even anywhere else period!

The point of all this, I guess, is my belief that Camaro must evolve to succeed. That doesn't mean throwing away the "formula" that is Camaro.....believe me, I would never stand for that.

But Camaro's perception must somehow be enhanced by those who would (or even currently wouldn't) consider buying them.

V8's are an absolute must. But I believe that it would sure help if their were a Camaro variant that was easy to afford, easy to insure, easy to hot rod, tapped into a growing aftermarket....and of course great looking and fun to drive.

For all those waiting for a $20K 400hp V8 Camaro.......I've got some news for you..IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN .
And it's not realistic to expect it.

Maybe Ecotec is the answer...maybe not. But it's a segment, a price point, and a demographic that needs to be addressed...and it needs to be addressed by Camaro.

Anyone have any better ideas.............?

 

Yeah, make the Z28 the top car.