Depends...
Arnold Schwartzenegerhamster or PeeWee Hermanhampster?


Helluva post. You and dad are in the MAJORITY of potential buyers too, I assure you.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Proud and Jason E. I think a midlevel v8 is not only important, but necassary. It serves two purposes. one, for people that are really scared for a 325 horse WS6 TA. two, is people that cant afford that ws6. That goes both new and used. I'll use myself as an example. When I went shopping for my first car last year, I really wanted a 4th gen TA. I love them, I have ever since i was 9 when they came out. But there was no way i could afford one with my budget, they were about $5000 out of my price range So i looked for a nice third gen. I really wanted a tpi TA, especially a 350. I love my brothers 85 tpi 305 TA. i hunted and hunted, but with little more then a thousand dollars, when I found my 88 formula tbi for $1300, i bought it. I absolutely loved that car. It was beat up, over 170k miles, constantly needing work, bad paint job, rims that just couldnt come clean. but i was friggin proud of it! I loved it, i washed it all the time, i showed it off whenever it could, I loved driving it. It was my car, and I was proud to own it. unfortunately, because of some bad repair work i wrecked it, but to this day I am still looking for another one and I will not be satisfied till i find another one. the keys for it are still on my keychain and i wont take them off until i find a replacement.

Now you may ask, what does this have to do with anything? GM doesnt care what people do when they buy used cars. but see, in a couple years i will buy a used lt1 TA. still, its used. then I will buy an '02 ws6 when i can afford one in a few years after that. but then, GM will be way happy because I will buy a brand new 5th gen TA after that, when i can afford one.

If there is one.

Its not my fault I'm 17. I cant afford a brand new car. but you bet when I can, itll be a firebird. I loved my beat up little mid level third gen because it was the best i could get, and i was happy with it. if there was no tbi formula i wouldnt have had a firebird yet, i still cant afford a trans am, used or not. and im just not interested in a v6. no thanks.

the fourth gen didnt die because of the dash or any of the other, imo, lame reasons people come up for how the 4th gen is worse then the 3rd. does that really bother anyone? Nope. I highly doubt it. people like the 4th gen. my friend and i went to visit friends the other day, and he has a '95 formula. everyone there said it was a 'beautiful car'. thats coming from a girl, btw. my other friend annoyed the crap out of him till he let him drive it, and he came back with a big grin. (he drives a ford taurus, btw).

Its because people couldnt afford or didnt want a top of the line TA. many would just be as happy in a 'lesser' formula. I never understood the 4th gen formula. in the end, it was almost exactly the same as the ta, with t tops and leather seats standard. whats the point, really? it wasnt much cheaper then the TA, which is the whole point.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PacerX
Complexity says that 2 motors are better than three, unless the third (midlevel) motor is really just a spin-off of one of the other two.

Not a problem, use the 4.8. Same packaging as the LS1


If a mid-level V8 is chosen, the smaller displacement truck motors are a solid choice, but they are all (if I remember correctly) iron blocks. This would probably require an aluminum block variant to keep weight down.

Why? Camaros never had aluminum blocks before '98 and it wasn't a problem. Save the engineering costs for the aluminum block and put it in as is. Bonus: the aluminum block LS1 is looked upon as a more "premium" engine.


Was anyone displeased with the 3800 V6 in the F-cars who would have wanted a mid-level choice, and is there enough room between a 275hp LT1 and a 205hp V6 to justify in anyone's mind? I know we have strong opinions about that here from a fellow working at a dealership, but personally I question it.

Remember, the first 4th gens had a 115 horse difference between the 3.4 and 5.7. After the '98s (305hp.....HA!!) the difference was even greater. The 3.8 came around as a third engine option (which we're told now is not feasable, even though M***ang has 4 engines available). I owned a '92 RS w/ the optional V-8, and I am soooo glad it was available. The V-8, as weak as it was (the TBI), is coveted in a car like Camaro. Incidentaly, there were 4 engines available in '92!

Point is, sure Camaro will have to share all powerplants w/ other models, but there is reason to consider a 3rd engine, available on the base car. Using '02 as an example, use the 3.8, optional 4.8 (w/ auto only if you don't want to use the 6sp). Z/28 (thats for you Z28forever) and SS models have LS1 (and damned it would have been nice to get the LS6). My opinion is that the 130 hp spread between the 3800 and LS1 was too polarizing. Enthusiasts loved the LS1, mere mortals found the 3.8 satisfying, but there were a whoooole lot of people in the middle (myself included) that had to get either more or less than they really wanted.

 

why couldnt they hop up the 4.3 and set it in there

 

I think a High power V6 would be better than a weaker V8, a lot of people are scared of the V8.

 

Thank you very much.

 

"Not a problem, use the 4.8. Same packaging as the LS1."

Good idea. Except for one thing:
A 4.8 is probably as expensive as an LS1 with an aluminum block, and GM gets this money back where? You either REALLY jack up the price for the LS1, or jack up the price for this midlevel motor that enthusiasts are going to deplore - just like everyone thought that TPI and TBI 305's were turds and 5.0 Mustangs would salivate when then saw them.

Then you have some other issues, like how many different automatics am I going to make? It makes no sense to take a 4L60 designed to survive 350 ft. lbs. and throw it behind a motor rated only for 280 ft. lbs. - so you start pulling parts of the clutch packs. Then you get a different transmission, and the complexity starts getting nuttier from there.


"Why? Camaros never had aluminum blocks before '98 and it wasn't a problem. Save the engineering costs for the aluminum block and put it in as is."

I wish it were that simple. Unfortunately you tack about 80 lbs. right onto the nose of the car by going to iron from aluminum, which means different springs, different shocks, changes in the rear suspension, etc... etc... etc... unless you want the thing to plow like crazy due to a nasty understeer problem.

It all adds up to a LOT more parts.


"The V-8, as weak as it was (the TBI), is coveted in a car like Camaro. Incidentaly, there were 4 engines available in '92!"

Bro, don't take this the wrong way, but no one I know of coveted the TBI 305. The turbo Sunbird made more power when it launched.


"Incidentaly, there were 4 engines available in '92!"

And I submit that that was a MISTAKE. Too many parts.


We can agree to disagree, but let me make this final point:

It costs money to develop 2 powertrains for a car. It costs roughly twice as much to develop four. I would much rather see GM spend that money on making two world-class powertrains (say a 250-280hp V6 and a 400-450hp V8) than 4 iterations so we can accomodate some percentage of buyers who want something different for some reason that I still can't understand.

A core part of selling a lot of Camaros is the idea that they need to be faster than Mustangs/350Z's/RX-8's/M3's etc... if having an extra 1 or 2 powertrain options eliminates this due to costs, count me out.

 

Fair enough.

But do you really see GM ante-ing up a 280HP V6 for the Camaro? They'd need to go with a HF V6....which costs more than an LS1....or a S/C HV V6.

Setting aside 350Z/G35 and others.....here is what we're pretty sure the Mustang will have by'05 or so.

-base V6, 250 hp Duratec

-base V8 (GT), ~300hp

-optional V8 (Cobra), 400+

Also, there are rumors of another model, (Mach 1 ?), with about 350 hp.


Seems to me, that GM ought to consider, not only having some competitive, world class, powertrains for Camaro.....but alittle choice too.

 

Your points are well taken friend. Let us at least agree that we are arguing over what we both most wish for...

... a new Camaro.

And I promise not to kick it out of bed if it has 3-4 engine choices!!!!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PacerX
"Not a problem, use the 4.8. Same packaging as the LS1."

Good idea. Except for one thing:
A 4.8 is probably as expensive as an LS1 with an aluminum block, and GM gets this money back where? You either REALLY jack up the price for the LS1, or jack up the price for this midlevel motor that enthusiasts are going to deplore - just like everyone thought that TPI and TBI 305's were turds and 5.0 Mustangs would salivate when then saw them.

Then you have some other issues, like how many different automatics am I going to make? It makes no sense to take a 4L60 designed to survive 350 ft. lbs. and throw it behind a motor rated only for 280 ft. lbs. - so you start pulling parts of the clutch packs. Then you get a different transmission, and the complexity starts getting nuttier from there.

How do they deal w/ this problem on the trucks, which have several engine options?


I wish it were that simple. Unfortunately you tack about 80 lbs. right onto the nose of the car by going to iron from aluminum, which means different springs, different shocks, changes in the rear suspension, etc... etc... etc... unless you want the thing to plow like crazy due to a nasty understeer problem.

It all adds up to a LOT more parts.

Heavier nose...different springs and shocks. What else?


Bro, don't take this the wrong way, but no one I know of coveted the TBI 305. The turbo Sunbird made more power when it launched.

Haha, fair enough, but compared to the 130hp V6, it was coveted. We were priced out of the Z28, so the RS was the only way we could afford to go. If the 5.0 hadn't been available, we wouldn't have bought the car. Incidently, my wife drove it for 4 years, and the power was just fine for her. But you're right that it wasn't near enough for ME to "covet".


"Incidentaly, there were 4 engines available in '92!"

And I submit that that was a MISTAKE. Too many parts.

And yet M***ang does that very thing right this minute, and they're selling well.


We can agree to disagree, but let me make this final point:

It costs money to develop 2 powertrains for a car. It costs roughly twice as much to develop four. I would much rather see GM spend that money on making two world-class powertrains (say a 250-280hp V6 and a 400-450hp V8) than 4 iterations so we can accomodate some percentage of buyers who want something different for some reason that I still can't understand.

A core part of selling a lot of Camaros is the idea that they need to be faster than Mustangs/350Z's/RX-8's/M3's etc... if having an extra 1 or 2 powertrain options eliminates this due to costs, count me out.

Oh well, if we were talking about 250-280 horse V6's I would be in agreement. But this thing started w/ 200-215 hp options, which in my view, would make the new car HOPELESSLY outclassed in 200x when it comes out. But if you're starting out in the 350z, WRX, CL Type S, G35, Altima neighborhood as your base engine, then you wouldn't need the midrange at all. My point was if you had a base engine in the 200-220 hp range, and a hi-po 400-450hp version.....you're talking extremes. but I like your numbers much better than the 200hp that started this thread.

 

"Heavier nose...different springs and shocks. What else?"

Different alignment set up, different springs and shocks in the rear.


"How do they deal w/ this problem on the trucks, which have several engine options?"

In general, if memory serves, they don't. Each one of the truck engine options has more volume than Camaro does in total and will and thereby justify a different business case.


"If the 5.0 hadn't been available, we wouldn't have bought the car. "

May I submit you as possibly being a special case?


"And yet M***ang does that very thing right this minute, and they're selling well."

Since when do we take Ford as an example of good engineering, business practices or quality?


"Oh well, if we were talking about 250-280 horse V6's I would be in agreement. But this thing started w/ 200-215 hp options, which in my view, would make the new car HOPELESSLY outclassed in 200x when it comes out. But if you're starting out in the 350z, WRX, CL Type S, G35, Altima neighborhood as your base engine, then you wouldn't need the midrange at all. My point was if you had a base engine in the 200-220 hp range, and a hi-po 400-450hp version....."


Yeah, I see where you're coming from.

 

I used to own an 89 Camaro RS with the TBI 305 V8...

Though I bought mine used at the time (fresh out of high school), I did look hard for the V8... I didnt really want the V6... I looked specifically for a V8 RS, as I could not afford an IROC-Z.

As I remember right, the 305 TBI V8 was a $325 or $350 option on the RS for 1989.

 

HA!! You see!! Why doesn't anyone believe us? Believe me, if you were stuck w/ the RS, that TBI was as good as gold ($358 in '92 to add the V-8).

 

Gotta love that. I wonder what the cost differential is between a 3.5-3.8 HV V6 compared to a 4.8 V8. Maybe around $1000...............? That would be a great idea. I think the cost between thse two could be pretty low as long as they can share the same tranny and other driveline components. I am sold on the mid-level car being called "RS".

 

ME TOO!

"RS", IT IS!!