View Poll Results: What base engine in a 5th Gen?
200 HP OHV 3500
10
20.00%
215 HP I5
25
50.00%
Low end 140 HP I4 Ecotech with factory installed 200+ HP option
3
6.00%
I don't want GM to make a Base car
6
12.00%
I don't care long as it has enough power to make my mullet wave in the wind!
6
12.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll
What base Engine should a 5th Gen have?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
I think a v8 as the base engine solves bunches of problems and saves a lot of money.
These cars are not perceived as gas savers regarless of what engine you put in them. But we can all pretty much assume a 5th gen would be at least a couple of hundred pounds lighter than the 4th gen, which would help MPG. I think a small displacement, all aluminum pushrod v8 with displacement on demand would be able to knock out 30mpg highway easily.
Have you guys noticed how terrible the MPG ratings are on some of the new 4 door v6 sedans? I think the new Mazda 6 is rated at only 26mpg highway. THis is a pretty small, front drive, v6er. Most M6 LS1 F-bodies can match that easily. So I don't think mileage would be a real issue. I'm also assuming that a small, detuned version of the Gen IV smallblock would be even more efficient than the LS1/6.
Plus look at the economies it provides from a production standpoint. EVERYTHING under the hood is shared. Think of a 3.8V6 car vs. an LS1, not only does the engine have to be changed, but I believe the tranny bellhousing is different, you have a 5sp vs a 6sp in the manuals, all the external engine accessories are different as well. Being able to use the same entire driveline plus external engine pieces would save a lot of money and make the entire car not only cheaper to develop but more profitable on a per vehicle basis.
I think V8s are like RWD, most people really would prefer one if the case could be made that its practical and reasonably efficient. V6s and FWD were forced on the buying public by the gas crunch of the '70s and escalating insurance premiums. I'm not saying there's not a place for small, economical vehicles, there is, but even a base Camaro is still a Camaro...a pony car, and I think people in the market for this kind of car would respond to a modest but pleasing v8 rumble in even their base models.
There's no reason the base coupe has to be the ugly stepsister--the cash cow if you will--to the Z28 (and other performance models). Every Camaro should be an enthusiast-oriented car and give the driver a sensation of performance regarless of what someone is willing to spend on one.
If we can have a small displacement V8 that meets or exceeds the performance and efficiency standards of a "benchmarked" v6, and makes the car cheaper overall, why would you want a v6 at all? Imagine being able to step into a base V8 Camaro for $22,000 in 2006 dollars...what a steal!
These cars are not perceived as gas savers regarless of what engine you put in them. But we can all pretty much assume a 5th gen would be at least a couple of hundred pounds lighter than the 4th gen, which would help MPG. I think a small displacement, all aluminum pushrod v8 with displacement on demand would be able to knock out 30mpg highway easily.
Have you guys noticed how terrible the MPG ratings are on some of the new 4 door v6 sedans? I think the new Mazda 6 is rated at only 26mpg highway. THis is a pretty small, front drive, v6er. Most M6 LS1 F-bodies can match that easily. So I don't think mileage would be a real issue. I'm also assuming that a small, detuned version of the Gen IV smallblock would be even more efficient than the LS1/6.
Plus look at the economies it provides from a production standpoint. EVERYTHING under the hood is shared. Think of a 3.8V6 car vs. an LS1, not only does the engine have to be changed, but I believe the tranny bellhousing is different, you have a 5sp vs a 6sp in the manuals, all the external engine accessories are different as well. Being able to use the same entire driveline plus external engine pieces would save a lot of money and make the entire car not only cheaper to develop but more profitable on a per vehicle basis.
I think V8s are like RWD, most people really would prefer one if the case could be made that its practical and reasonably efficient. V6s and FWD were forced on the buying public by the gas crunch of the '70s and escalating insurance premiums. I'm not saying there's not a place for small, economical vehicles, there is, but even a base Camaro is still a Camaro...a pony car, and I think people in the market for this kind of car would respond to a modest but pleasing v8 rumble in even their base models.
There's no reason the base coupe has to be the ugly stepsister--the cash cow if you will--to the Z28 (and other performance models). Every Camaro should be an enthusiast-oriented car and give the driver a sensation of performance regarless of what someone is willing to spend on one.
If we can have a small displacement V8 that meets or exceeds the performance and efficiency standards of a "benchmarked" v6, and makes the car cheaper overall, why would you want a v6 at all? Imagine being able to step into a base V8 Camaro for $22,000 in 2006 dollars...what a steal!
Last edited by Chris 96 WS6; Feb 5, 2003 at 04:41 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,313
I don't know about you guys but i'd like to see the base car weigh less then 3300lbs. The late 4th gens base v6 weighed more then a Mustang GT. I see something wrong with that. That kind of weight kills performance.
Power is good, but a good lightweight platform is just as important. Anything over the 200hp will be an improvement. They just need to put it into a 3100 or lb camaro. 220-230hp will be enough to get a car like that into the high 14's.
So my vote is, 3100lbs and 200+ horses v6.
Power is good, but a good lightweight platform is just as important. Anything over the 200hp will be an improvement. They just need to put it into a 3100 or lb camaro. 220-230hp will be enough to get a car like that into the high 14's.
So my vote is, 3100lbs and 200+ horses v6.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,368
From: OR
why do we need base models? the future seems to be more lower produciton # cars, built from the same platform.
If they develop a performanec platform and share it between chev, pont, buick, and perhaps even saturn, everybody would be happy.
If they develop a performanec platform and share it between chev, pont, buick, and perhaps even saturn, everybody would be happy.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
base Camaro needs to be faster than a 240HP Honda Accord
I say no to the wimpy base V8, in this age of 250+HP V6's NO GM V8 SHOULD BE UNDER 300HP. just think of some ricer saying "The S2000 I4 puts out 240HP and your Chevy V8 only puts out 250HP and it has twice as many cylinders"
I say no to the wimpy base V8, in this age of 250+HP V6's NO GM V8 SHOULD BE UNDER 300HP. just think of some ricer saying "The S2000 I4 puts out 240HP and your Chevy V8 only puts out 250HP and it has twice as many cylinders"
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
I think a v8 as the base engine solves bunches of problems and saves a lot of money.
These cars are not perceived as gas savers regarless of what engine you put in them. But we can all pretty much assume a 5th gen would be at least a couple of hundred pounds lighter than the 4th gen, which would help MPG. I think a small displacement, all aluminum pushrod v8 with displacement on demand would be able to knock out 30mpg highway easily.
Have you guys noticed how terrible the MPG ratings are on some of the new 4 door v6 sedans? I think the new Mazda 6 is rated at only 26mpg highway. THis is a pretty small, front drive, v6er. Most M6 LS1 F-bodies can match that easily. So I don't think mileage would be a real issue. I'm also assuming that a small, detuned version of the Gen IV smallblock would be even more efficient than the LS1/6.
Plus look at the economies it provides from a production standpoint. EVERYTHING under the hood is shared. Think of a 3.8V6 car vs. an LS1, not only does the engine have to be changed, but I believe the tranny bellhousing is different, you have a 5sp vs a 6sp in the manuals, all the external engine accessories are different as well. Being able to use the same entire driveline plus external engine pieces would save a lot of money and make the entire car not only cheaper to develop but more profitable on a per vehicle basis.
I think V8s are like RWD, most people really would prefer one if the case could be made that its practical and reasonably efficient. V6s and FWD were forced on the buying public by the gas crunch of the '70s and escalating insurance premiums. I'm not saying there's not a place for small, economical vehicles, there is, but even a base Camaro is still a Camaro...a pony car, and I think people in the market for this kind of car would respond to a modest but pleasing v8 rumble in even their base models.
There's no reason the base coupe has to be the ugly stepsister--the cash cow if you will--to the Z28 (and other performance models). Every Camaro should be an enthusiast-oriented car and give the driver a sensation of performance regarless of what someone is willing to spend on one.
If we can have a small displacement V8 that meets or exceeds the performance and efficiency standards of a "benchmarked" v6, and makes the car cheaper overall, why would you want a v6 at all? Imagine being able to step into a base V8 Camaro for $22,000 in 2006 dollars...what a steal!
I think a v8 as the base engine solves bunches of problems and saves a lot of money.
These cars are not perceived as gas savers regarless of what engine you put in them. But we can all pretty much assume a 5th gen would be at least a couple of hundred pounds lighter than the 4th gen, which would help MPG. I think a small displacement, all aluminum pushrod v8 with displacement on demand would be able to knock out 30mpg highway easily.
Have you guys noticed how terrible the MPG ratings are on some of the new 4 door v6 sedans? I think the new Mazda 6 is rated at only 26mpg highway. THis is a pretty small, front drive, v6er. Most M6 LS1 F-bodies can match that easily. So I don't think mileage would be a real issue. I'm also assuming that a small, detuned version of the Gen IV smallblock would be even more efficient than the LS1/6.
Plus look at the economies it provides from a production standpoint. EVERYTHING under the hood is shared. Think of a 3.8V6 car vs. an LS1, not only does the engine have to be changed, but I believe the tranny bellhousing is different, you have a 5sp vs a 6sp in the manuals, all the external engine accessories are different as well. Being able to use the same entire driveline plus external engine pieces would save a lot of money and make the entire car not only cheaper to develop but more profitable on a per vehicle basis.
I think V8s are like RWD, most people really would prefer one if the case could be made that its practical and reasonably efficient. V6s and FWD were forced on the buying public by the gas crunch of the '70s and escalating insurance premiums. I'm not saying there's not a place for small, economical vehicles, there is, but even a base Camaro is still a Camaro...a pony car, and I think people in the market for this kind of car would respond to a modest but pleasing v8 rumble in even their base models.
There's no reason the base coupe has to be the ugly stepsister--the cash cow if you will--to the Z28 (and other performance models). Every Camaro should be an enthusiast-oriented car and give the driver a sensation of performance regarless of what someone is willing to spend on one.
If we can have a small displacement V8 that meets or exceeds the performance and efficiency standards of a "benchmarked" v6, and makes the car cheaper overall, why would you want a v6 at all? Imagine being able to step into a base V8 Camaro for $22,000 in 2006 dollars...what a steal!
You've almost got me sold on this idea, but I have another angle to throw out before I jump ship to swim with you in this sea of V6 base car beleivers (me still included, barely)...
There is a huge public perception about V6s, economy, and power. I think people in general see V6s as more efficient - even though that's often wrong. I myself wasn't much of a beleiver until I got my '89 5.0 LX. I get 28mpg consistently with that car, all the TQ and HP I'd ever need for a daily driver. My old 4-banger struggles to get 19 city, 24 hwy - honest truth. We in this forum know how great some of the Lt1/Ls1 cars do on mileage and with incredible performance too. Do the current V6 cars compare? I rest my case.
But again, ask some stranger in a grocery store what they'd buy for moderate performance AND good economy...
So would you risk NOT offering a V6 in a NEW ponycar? You might well alienate 1/2 of your potential buyers (based on Mustang sales), and that won't do much for helping you get a successful launch. Maybe offer the V6 for a year or two, then drop the V6 for a base Lo-Po V8?
I'm hearing you, and I'm understanding where you are coming from, but I'm an easy sell for you because 1) I know V8s can be economical from experience, and 2) I just love V8s! Getting a common buyer to see a V8 as economical... might be tough.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Some of you guys are overlooking such issues as insurance. A v8 would be more expensive to insure then a v6. That's a big selling point. For this reason, a base v8 wouldn't be a good idea.
Some of you guys are overlooking such issues as insurance. A v8 would be more expensive to insure then a v6. That's a big selling point. For this reason, a base v8 wouldn't be a good idea.
Originally posted by ProudPony
Don't you think that would impact insurance? What about mileage (not that 6's do any better, but public perception says...blahblahblah)? We could get equal or better HP in a 6 as an 8 if the carmakers wanted to do it.
Don't you think that would impact insurance? What about mileage (not that 6's do any better, but public perception says...blahblahblah)? We could get equal or better HP in a 6 as an 8 if the carmakers wanted to do it.
But why is it that us 5.0 guys are the only ones worried about the I-word?
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 581
From: New York, NY
Originally posted by Z28x
base Camaro needs to be faster than a 240HP Honda Accord
I say no to the wimpy base V8, in this age of 250+HP V6's NO GM V8 SHOULD BE UNDER 300HP. just think of some ricer saying "The S2000 I4 puts out 240HP and your Chevy V8 only puts out 250HP and it has twice as many cylinders"
base Camaro needs to be faster than a 240HP Honda Accord
I say no to the wimpy base V8, in this age of 250+HP V6's NO GM V8 SHOULD BE UNDER 300HP. just think of some ricer saying "The S2000 I4 puts out 240HP and your Chevy V8 only puts out 250HP and it has twice as many cylinders"
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,376
From: Sarasota FL
You NEED...I repeat, NEED a base V6 car, period. Its an image car. Its a price car. Its an insurable car. Its a secretary's car. Its a fun car to drive, and really the only current F body that can be driven year-round, reasonably, if you live where the snow flies. The V6 will add volume. Volume is good. Volume keeps prices down. Volume will get the project approved faster. Period.
And I had this discussion with Red Planet...
You NEED a mid-level V8. No excuses. Period. Too many people this year walked into my showroom and said "I don't need 310hp." These are people that owned '80s F bodies with 305 TBIs. They were happy with a solid, base level V8. They didn't need, nor did they even want the best. Look at Mustang GT sales...the 260hp version is the most popular by far. Its an option GM hasn't given its customers since '92. For me personally, if given the choice in a 5th gen, I'd be thrilled by a 280-290hp 4.8 or 5.3 V8. Leave the 5.7 320-340+ HP versions to those who need it. I know I don't. I'd love a mid-level RS model, attractively priced, with a smaller V8. Better mileage, lower price, a little saner car...sign me up.
I will take the big V8 if necessary, but I don't need it, and I don't particularly even WANT it. Give me the value of a base V8. Look at history...how many 305 TBI RSs were sold compared to TPI IROCs and Zs?? The numbers are shocking...
And I had this discussion with Red Planet...
You NEED a mid-level V8. No excuses. Period. Too many people this year walked into my showroom and said "I don't need 310hp." These are people that owned '80s F bodies with 305 TBIs. They were happy with a solid, base level V8. They didn't need, nor did they even want the best. Look at Mustang GT sales...the 260hp version is the most popular by far. Its an option GM hasn't given its customers since '92. For me personally, if given the choice in a 5th gen, I'd be thrilled by a 280-290hp 4.8 or 5.3 V8. Leave the 5.7 320-340+ HP versions to those who need it. I know I don't. I'd love a mid-level RS model, attractively priced, with a smaller V8. Better mileage, lower price, a little saner car...sign me up.
I will take the big V8 if necessary, but I don't need it, and I don't particularly even WANT it. Give me the value of a base V8. Look at history...how many 305 TBI RSs were sold compared to TPI IROCs and Zs?? The numbers are shocking...
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 358
From: AU
There is only one solution here... and here it is -
Here -
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?009911
and here -
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/*query?...ure&source=all
Here -
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?009911
and here -
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/*query?...ure&source=all
Registered User
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
There definatly needs a V6 or a base engine of some choice. I like the SC V6 idea but that would be too much and probably cost near the V8 level. I would also like to see a base V8, I think that would help sales a lot. It's true about the 305's in the 3rd gens. Good luck trying to find a 90' IROC or 91-92 Z but then try to find a 305 RS or another 305 Z or Formula. The base should be no less than 300 hp since the top model will be going more upscale.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Originally posted by Burmite
I fully agree. V6's now are getting very powerful in N/A form. The new 350Z has the VQ35 that produces 280+hp. All in a V6! I think the base car needs to be sporty and faster than most cars out there now. Doesn't Mazda or Honda now make a 240hp minivan? I forget who makes it. The slogan is "240 horsies?" That's embarrassing. The 5th gen needs a 250-260hp base engine. My vote is for the S/C 3.5 that will be going into the G6. Although I think for issues of image in the car world, a N/A 3.5 making 250 is what I would prefer even though its not going to happen.
I fully agree. V6's now are getting very powerful in N/A form. The new 350Z has the VQ35 that produces 280+hp. All in a V6! I think the base car needs to be sporty and faster than most cars out there now. Doesn't Mazda or Honda now make a 240hp minivan? I forget who makes it. The slogan is "240 horsies?" That's embarrassing. The 5th gen needs a 250-260hp base engine. My vote is for the S/C 3.5 that will be going into the G6. Although I think for issues of image in the car world, a N/A 3.5 making 250 is what I would prefer even though its not going to happen.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
Chris 96 WS6,
You've almost got me sold on this idea, but I have another angle to throw out before I jump ship to swim with you in this sea of V6 base car beleivers (me still included, barely)...
There is a huge public perception about V6s, economy, and power. I think people in general see V6s as more efficient - even though that's often wrong. I myself wasn't much of a beleiver until I got my '89 5.0 LX. I get 28mpg consistently with that car, all the TQ and HP I'd ever need for a daily driver. My old 4-banger struggles to get 19 city, 24 hwy - honest truth. We in this forum know how great some of the Lt1/Ls1 cars do on mileage and with incredible performance too. Do the current V6 cars compare? I rest my case.
You've almost got me sold on this idea, but I have another angle to throw out before I jump ship to swim with you in this sea of V6 base car beleivers (me still included, barely)...
There is a huge public perception about V6s, economy, and power. I think people in general see V6s as more efficient - even though that's often wrong. I myself wasn't much of a beleiver until I got my '89 5.0 LX. I get 28mpg consistently with that car, all the TQ and HP I'd ever need for a daily driver. My old 4-banger struggles to get 19 city, 24 hwy - honest truth. We in this forum know how great some of the Lt1/Ls1 cars do on mileage and with incredible performance too. Do the current V6 cars compare? I rest my case.
And the answer to Branden's question is that Accord and Camry are soccer mom cars for God's sake...any Camaro....ANY CAMARO is a step above this kind of car in terms of being an enthusiast car, and therefore it is only fitting and proper that any camaro you buy should be at least slightly faster than any Soccer Mom mobile. Its a public perception/image thing.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6
The only thing I would say to this is that some times you have to buck convention and be a trendsetter. 5th gen needs to be noticed, and a bold move like no-v6 would help.
And the answer to Branden's question is that Accord and Camry are soccer mom cars for God's sake...any Camaro....ANY CAMARO is a step above this kind of car in terms of being an enthusiast car, and therefore it is only fitting and proper that any camaro you buy should be at least slightly faster than any Soccer Mom mobile. Its a public perception/image thing.
The only thing I would say to this is that some times you have to buck convention and be a trendsetter. 5th gen needs to be noticed, and a bold move like no-v6 would help.
And the answer to Branden's question is that Accord and Camry are soccer mom cars for God's sake...any Camaro....ANY CAMARO is a step above this kind of car in terms of being an enthusiast car, and therefore it is only fitting and proper that any camaro you buy should be at least slightly faster than any Soccer Mom mobile. Its a public perception/image thing.
Thier are still thousands of 2.3L Fox Mustangs on the road and they were some of the slowest cars of thier time
Last edited by formula79; Feb 6, 2003 at 08:42 AM.