Doug Harden

....it would be MUCH more productive for the guys building the 5th gen to have a list of likes and dislikes from each gen.


I'll start....

1st gen:
> Love the styling, nearly everything about it...69's my favorite!!
> Like the real trunk
> Like the weight...even though it could be a little lighter
> Like the seating position somewhat
> LOVE the easy engine access!!!
> Loved big blocks too!
> Don't like the "big car" handling of the stock versions
> Don't like rust
> Don't like the flexibility of the chassis

2nd gens:
> Never owned one (only gen I haven't ?!?)
> LOVE the RS split bumper 70 1/2 - 73 cars!
> Hated the interiors though..looked cheap (early versions)
> Too bad the later versions lacked HP....

3rd gens:
> Liked the styling
> Liked under hood and trunk lighting (WTF did it go on the 4th gens??)
> Liked the handling
> LOVE t-tops!
> Hate t-top leaks....
> Hated the way the t-tops were stored
> Liked the easier than 4th gen access to the engine
> Liked the hatch pull down....even though small children's fingers had better beware!
> Hated the rattles and cracked dashes
> Hated the heavy, long steel doors (at least they're RFP on the 4th gens)


4th gens:
> LOVE the return of HP!
> Love the continued refinement in squeeks & rattles (35th Anniv. conv I drove was the BEST Camaro ever!)
> Like the styling (even though it did have to grow on me...didn't take long though)
> Love the MPG possible with light footed driving (seen 30mpg on the highway)
> MUCH better stereos than before
> Like the seating position
> Love the options available
> Still love t-tops!
> Hate insurance costs
> Hate engine access
> Hate weak rear-ends and trannys (great engines, weak drivetrains?!?)
> Hate the fact that the two rear seat fold-down latches aren't connected so that it takes a wide reach to do them both at teh same time......grrrrrr


I'll probably think of more.......your turn!


[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited July 13, 2002).]

Z28Wilson

Great topic. I've never owned a 1st or 2nd Gen, and I agree with you about your 3rd and 4th Gen likes/dislikes. The thing I'll say about the weak rear end point is that it hasn't affected me yet, I don't have any money to make the kind of horsepower necessary to break parts. I know the rear ends are very weak in these cars, something that I'd like to see beefed up in the next gen (how strong is Sigma's rear, with the IRS?) However, if this upgrade takes development dollars from something else important, such as higher quality interior materials, etc., I say forget the rear ends and let the people who want to make big-time HP worry about it. That's just part of the price you pay for building a drag strip warrior.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

Darth Xed

I'd like them to use better power window motors (that don't burn out).

Also better brake rotors that don't warp so easily.

Improve the squeeks & rattles that show up over time.

Keep, and expand the use of the dent resistant body panels.

More choice of interior colors. I'm sick of ebony, grey, and beige...

More choice of exterior colors. I know it costs money to change paint colors in the booth, but this has to be a relatively cheap thing to do to offer more choices.

Darth Xed

Oh, yeah... and REQUIRE dealers to stock a certain amount of Camaro's. Not everyone wants to have to order a car and wait 8 weeks to get it.

And I certainly know a lot of people won't buy the car without beign able to at least test drive one.

This means stocking a models of the car, with different trannys, and different colors.

Seems liek most of the time, when you hit a Chevy dealer, they are luck to have 2 Camaro's on the lot!

cmc

This is the list of things I like/dislike and think are relevant to a 5th gen.

LIKES:
1st generation:
- Simple, clean styling
- Relatively (to its class) high-tech, high-revving and high-power engine (Z/28 302)
- Variety of engines/drivetrains

2nd generation:
- Hatchback design.
- I liked the single-headlight models

3rd generation:
- More squared styling than the others, but still sufficiently round and muscular on the sides
- Fender flares
- Air intakes in the nose/front bumper on V6 models
- Gauges
- Better choice of interior colors (where's grey or red now?)

4th generation:
- T56 transmission
- High-tech engine returns
- Hood scoop
- Seats
- Rack and pinion steering
- ABS and Traction control

DISLIKES
1st generation:
- Stock handling
- Stock wheels/tires
- (Blasphemy, I know, but...) Hidden headlight models

2nd generation:
- Double-headlight models
- Models heavy on the ground effects

3rd generation:
- 80s ground effects (the 90s ones look nicer, but I personally like the smooth look without them)
- MacPherson strut front suspension (not as much camber as a short/long arm)
- Catalytic convertor hump on the floor
- Cheap interior assembly quality
- T5 transmission

4th generation:
- Carried-over outdated 3rd gen rear suspension with solid axle in a time where IRS is almost default in sporty cars
- Stupid windshield makes it hard to get to the back of the engine, spark plugs, etc.
- Integrated spoiler

One more thing. On Acura Integras, I like how there's a little access port in the floorpan to get to the fuel sending unit. Perhaps the Camaro should get something like that?

Z284ever

I understand that Sigma's driveline components are very strong.....with even beefier pieces in the pipeline.

IZ28

Wow, theres just too many things too list. I'll just say I like the Thirds.

Z28Wilson

There's a shock.

IZ28

1sts are pretty cool too.

CLEAN

I'm not saying they need huge interiors, but the new one should have more room. The 1sts weren't huge, but the 2nds started the trend of big outside/small inside (and the space certainly didn't get used in the trunk either!).

I don't work for a car company, so I don't understand alot of things about the business, but I feel that the car should be made to appeal to the masses first, and the enthusiasts second. This is assuming that Chevrolet will need to move volume for the car to be sucessful. Now before you jump on my case, the base car I have in mind would be very good! Think of a CTS, it could be construed as being a base car, at least after the LS6 version comes out. So if Camaro could have a base version that could stand alone as a valued and coveted car, then the high performance version could be the halo version, ala the Z06 (would anyone mind having a "base" Vette?). You could also look at the Lincoln LS. The "base" model is the 6 cyl, which is a very good car! But there is also a V-8 version to make things interesting for those who can afford the price of admission.

Back to the Camaro, it seems that the 4th gen is the opposite of this idea. It was made as an enthusiast vehicle first (which it does an outstanding job of), but when you take the enthusiast part out of it (the V-8), the car isn't good enough to attract enough other buyers who want a sporty coupe. We all know the faults, and I won't bring them up, but I think if the new base car could garner the respect and desire in it's own right, then the performance version would be a knockout! Think 1967...who here doesn't do a double take when a red '67 vert goes by? Does it matter if it's a "base" model? No, it looks great, and is still coveted today. Now if you see a '67 RS/SS vert, then you'll probably cause an accident from paying it too much attention (I know I would). But how many "base" 3rd gens get your attention? Probably not many. I would say 4th gens too, but they're indistinguishable from the performance models (another subject that has been well covered).

Basically, I want a car that I don't have to make excuses for. I want to carry 4 people in reasonable level of comfort. I want them to be able to get in the back seat w/out b*tching. I don't want to have to explain the hump anymore. I want to be able to put my friends and my golf clubs in the trunk, w/out using/folding down the back seat. I want to be able to check the spark plugs and change the oil.

If all of these things sound like things you would expect from a normal car, then maybe the Camaro needs to become more of a normal car package (i.e. first gen), albiet w/out the blatant retro styling. Certainly the Sigma architecture and IRS would make up for any handling losses incurred from giving up the lowrider design of the 3rd and 4ths, the CTS after all seems to handle pretty well.

CLEAN

But to answer your question......

1st gen likes..
>Size, package, layout, broad appeal

dislikes...
chassis rigidity (although good for it's day) I drool over the 1st gens proportions and packaging w/ a modern chassis.

2nd gen likes...
stunning styling from a visual point of view

dislikes...
compromises made to allow for stunning styling. i.e. the start of the cramped interiors, big doors for back seat access, no trunk space, visibility issues (although helped by the larger rear window in '75 I believe it was).

3rd gen likes...
Great contemporary styling, world class handling, more useable cargo space w/ the hatchback design, lighter doors (how many broken door handles did you see on 3rd gens?)

dislikes....
being overpowered by family sedans and trucks initially, the great handling induced poor ride quality, recirc ball steering, STRUTS.

4th gen likes....
duh-LS1! SLA front suspension, lighter still doors, better ride control, better steering, ABS, TCS, easily defeatable skip shift, better engineered t-tops and t-top storage, CUPHOLDERS

dislikes...
the loss of the rear split folding seat, the underhood lighting, rear cargo lighting, the power hatch pulldown, and the access to the rear of the engine. The more pronounced hump, and the decline in visibility out of the rear hatch.

preferred 5th gen....
more car like, 1st gen layout, but W/OUT being blatanly retro. Cues are fine, themes are not. More interior space (slightly more front seat/much better back seat-the kids don't stay 7 years old forever). Better back seat access (where's the front seats that slide forward on their tracks when you tilt the seat back forward for back seat access? This would help w/ the big door syndrome too). A real trunk that can hold golf clubs, w/ a SPLIT folding back seat to allow FULL access to the trunk area for long items like skis and the occasional lumber. Flat floor pans. More interior colors. Make the base car a great car first and foremost, to satisfy the masses, then add the V-8, upgraded suspension and driveline components, hood, wheels, and exhaust to make an already great car even better!

stars1010

I think Clean has made a very good point here, something we have over looked lately. He is right and Chevy needs to realize this. We need a great base car before we need a great race car. This is what ford does with the rustang. GM needs to do it better.
Its a must if the 5th gen is to survive.
------------------
Stefan

1995 3.4L Camaro, Mystic Metallic Green, M5, 3.23’s, T-tops, every option except the V8

Ignore the future mods on my site, my plans have changed.
See my car here:
http://members.tripod.com/stars101010/

Best time: 10.7 @ 63mph in the 1/8 mile

[This message has been edited by stars1010 (edited July 14, 2002).]