I think the base car will be within 100lbs of the 335. V8 will be a little bit more.

That being said, you are all lunatics comparing the 3 series (about $32k base) with the Camaro (about $24k base).

 

I love how people are saying the GM shortcut the Camaro and that is why it is going to have more weight than what they think it should have. So, since you all are experts, why don't you go talk to Rick or Bob and tell them where they messed up. I'm sure they would be willing to listen.

 

Which brings us to the fact the 335i and 328i both have SIX CYLINDER ENGINES and driveline components that are a bit lighter duty than the M3's. You pointed out the weight being 3351 in an 328i. A 3800 V6 Camaro weighs 3307 according to GM..... and that's with an iron block.

The BMW mentioned has a 3.3 liter in-line six that's smaller in displacement than a V6 Camaro, and is a car that's alot smaller in physical size. Add a V8, and then you have to upgrade everything else from transmission to differential to brakes. The other thing is that the BMW doesn't actually have alot of "fluff" items that you can't get in a Saturn. There's probally more "fluff" items available in a Grand Prix.

So the question still is what are we prepared to give up? Are we willing to give up a V8 engine to get weight off to that (for whatever reason) magical sub-3500 pounds?

The stripped down to the basics Z28 hardtop weighed in at just a hair below 3450 pounds. Add t-tops, leather, power windows, top sound system, and you're knocking on 3500 pounds. Add Automatic transmission, add 80 pounds (General Motor's own press release peg the V6 Camaro with no options at 3323 with the manual and 3380 with the automatic). That clearly puts the most 4th gens well into the mid-3500 lb catagory.

GM is going to have their hands full enough and lose more than enough sleep just taking off enough weight to counter the weight gains from all the added stuff we're getting in safety, durability, and performance goodies.

As for the "hopefully under 40 grand" comment, keep in mind a loaded to the gills Shelby GT500 lists for about 40K, and there's going to be a point where dealers are going to stop scalping and start charging list (as they did with the Supercharged Cobras). Also, Corvettes start just a few grand over 40.

A Camaro V8 costing 40 grand (unless, like the GT500, it's a limited production high powered car) is going to be a death sentence, regardless as to the weight.

I think you mean the Camaro V8 MUST come in under 26 grand in today's money.

 

How do you mean "within"?

 

Guy....did Scott hire you to run the GM's excuse department?

I bet the LSx weighs about the same as BMW's inline 6. As most of us know, the CID of an engine is a poor indicator of weight (example: 4.6L Modular vs 7.0L LS7).

Someone used the 335i weight as an example...if the V6 5th Gen was ~100 lbs heavier than that, it'll be near 3700 lbs. If the V8 is "a bit heavier" than the V6, then you're up around 3800 lbs.

Scratch that analogy.

The car is going to be big, and it is going to be heavy. We got it. Don't like it, but got it.

 

In my opinion, within means "+/-".

My crystal ball is telling me V6=3550 , Base V8=3650 loaded , Top V8=3650-3750 depending on whether or not they decide to go the Z06 route of weight savings.

In other bold predictions, this thread is a waste of bandwidth and we will all look back and laugh in about a year. All this thread proves is that passionate (read:hard-headed)people will argue about anything.

Let's talk about something different. I heard that they aren't making a Z28 due to lack of expected demand. The SS is the most popular package, so it will be the top dog

 

Or might it possibly be that GM built a Camaro that would sell to a hundred thousand+ at a competitive price rather than for a relatively small group and what they are willing to give up for what they want.

 

I'm pretty sure that the LSx is lighter, (maybe even substantially so), than BMW's I6.

 

But will it?

I honestly believe the answer is no.

 

If you dont like the weight of the new V8 Camaro, just get a 3600 pound V6 and add a supercharger and intercooler..and woops, you are up another hundred pounds.
On Star standard, IRS standard, 5 star front and side crash rating with standard side curtain air bags. Chevy is GMs value leader and Scott has already stated that high cost, low weight materials will NOT be used in it. The new Camaro owners wont be bashing the 04-06 GTOs as heavy pigs. DONT WHINE, DEAL WITH IT! Hmm, where have I seen that before.

 

The point of listing the weight of the 328i was more along the lines of the increase in mass needed to create the twin turbo 335i. Not that I expect the 5th to be a 3300lb car... although that would obviously be possible if they made the base car identical to a 328i except for the hood emblem.

I agree that the engine's displacement is less, but I doubt that means the engine is substantially lighter. And I certainly doubt that the TT 3.0L would be any lighter than an all aluminum cam in block NA V8. A V8 in an of itself does not mean you need to upgrade the brakes though, especially compared to an example of the "ultimate driving machine". I will agree that the rear end and transmission will need to be able to absorb more torque, but I admit I do not know how much of a weight penalty that really comes out to. As for the options, the BMW is still a luxury car and it will have more luxury items that add extra weight even if it is a small amount of weight per item. I do not mean to imply that the 5th won't get any similar options.

What is interesting about those weights is that in the 4th gen what added all extra weight between the base car and the V8? The engine was only something like 40lbs heavier than the iron 3.8L, and the suspension, brakes, transmission, and rear end were essentially identical.

Outside of airbags and maybe the rear end I doubt that the rest of the things that affect those categories are really going to add too much weight.

I meant that hopefully the Camaro does not cost as much as a 335i, which was meant to put a little more perspective on the comparison. And I do not think that a V8 Camaro should necessarily come in under 26K in todays money unless they are planning on giving us V8s with no options again. If it did come in at 26K that would be a tremendous value, but I don't think it would be the end of the world if it cost a few grand more.

I am also aware of how much a Corvette costs and obviously do not think a Camaro belongs in the same price bracket.

 

Actually, the first Gen Camaro was a small sporty coupe compared to the typical cars of the day. Ever hear the term “Pony Car”? Later generations progressively (or digressively) got larger and heavier. The 4th gen cars were as big as full size sedans and some SUVs. The 4th gen’s weight may have been decent for its size, but its size was still less than ideal.

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that a Camaro should compete with the BMW 3 Series. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Camaro should become a 3-series or vise versa. These cars are clearly in different market segments and will rarely, if ever, be cross-shopped. That does not mean that we can’t recognize that the 3 Series is in fact a very good size and weight target for a modern pony car. Why not capitalize on what others have learned? I think a 3-series sized platform would be ideal to launch a new Camaro.


Guy, in most cases it is best to go with your first instinct!

Seriously though, I don’t understand where you get the idea that a smaller tidier Camaro won’t sell, or worse, would actually anger Camaro enthusiasts? Is this based on fact, research data, or opinion? You referenced low sales of the 3-series and G35 in another post. These really are not good indicators of how well a Camaro will sell regardless of size. These cars are not targeted to the same market segment and they are only niche players within their own segment. Camaro and Mustang started out as smaller, lighter, sporty cars by definition. Moreover, there have been smaller, lighter versions of the Mustang that have sold very well (Fox body comes to mind).

I think if you took the current 5th gen styling theme and built it around a 3-series sized platform you would have a winner. You could still improve upon the seating position; the ease of entry into the vehicle; and improve upon the interior space as compared to the 4th gen. The base vehicle buyer would be happy with their hot looking sporty car that gets good gas mileage; and the enthusiast will be excited with their size appropriate, light weight (relatively), great handling pony car.

If you start with a smaller, lighter platform you may not have to give up anything. A bigger car is going to weigh more. If you start with a smaller platform, you set the bar lower from the start. You may have to build it up or strengthen it in some areas, but you have the ability to optimize and control this better. You have a much better chance at managing the weight gain of a lighter car than you will ever have trying to reduce the weight of a heavy car.

Starting will a large, heavy platform is an anchor around the neck that you will never be able to swim away from!

One general comment: It seems there are some people that have been claiming for years on this board that the later generations of the Camaro “got off track” or “lost their way”. Some of these same people -now seem to be condoning the thought of a two ton Camaro. I personally can’t imagine being more lost or off track than building a two ton Camaro.

 

The 4th gens are huge, because they have a lot of plastic overhang. The platform really isn't that big. The 101" wheelbase is the real clue. If GM had styled the 4th gen in the '69 Camaro idiom, I'm guessing it could have come out 10" shorter at least.

The longer the wheelbase, the more steel you need to keep the same rigidity.

 

GM realizes Ford got it right with the Mustang, which will sell 500,000 to 600,000 units before the new Camaro comes out in spring 09. GM wants a good looking sporty high volume 2 door V6 model, a V8 performance coupe, a convertible the next model year and a high performance model after that. Sound familar? It is step for step mirroring the Mustang, from the V6 right up to the Shelby GT500 coupe and convertible models. Everyone bit(hing about weight can go out and buy a Monster Miata or LS1 RX7 and STFU.

 

I think that as well, and very strongly too. Actually, I think alot of people at GM agree. The issue however, is Zeta. A GTO sized Camaro, is about as small as Zeta can go.