There is not doubt that R compound tires can make a huge difference on an autocross coruse which is one reason why, if you are just starting out autocrossing, seasoned guys will tell you not to modify anything/buy soft tires, etc so that you can concentrate on improving YOU!

That's why I think looking at National results over the years in question is probably a much better indicator of how a particular car performs compared to others and the SS simply didn't do that well against C5s; at lest not at the results I've looked at.

The initial implication, however, was that a stock Fourth-Gen was as good or better as a stock C5; that's the assertion I didn't and still don't buy!

 

That's because that opinion differs from your opinion. Should GM build a 3-series competitor? Yes, I believe they should. Should such a competitor be called "Camaro"? Not in a million years. The Beemer is a small compact-sized sports coupe. The Camaro is not, and never has been. The 3-series, while a great handling and quick car, isn't wide enough, long enough, agressive enough, or... heavy enough to be considered a "Camaro".

Charlie we all know you love the 3-series... but it does not make for a good Camaro.

However, Pontiac, Buick or Cadillac would make for a solid alternative.

 

Guilty as charged!
I think the 3 series is simply an awesome package. And it gets a V8 this year too. So if you're saying that a RWD, V8 powered, 2 door coupe package - which BTW, has a roomier rear seat than any Camaro I've been in - somehow doesn't meet your criteria for a "good Camaro", simply because it's exterior dimensions are 4.5" shorter than the Camaro concept - well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

Nothing called "Camaro" will ever compete in the marketplace with anything wearing BMW - too many incompatible stereotypes from each camp.

328I comes in at 3351 lbs. As unrealistic as it may be, I'd jump all over a Camaro that was anywhere near that. But let me say it again so I don't get anyone misquoting.....As unrealistic as it may be. The translation there is that I know it isn't going to happen. I'm dreaming/wishing, ok?

But....

Why does something have to be "heavy enough" to be considered a "Camaro"? That sounds looney toons to me. Weight is the enemy of everything performance - EVERYTHING! Is not a Camaro about performance? Surely we can disagree on what specific number is too heavy or what is about right.....but now it has to be "heavy enough"?

Shew....sure sounds like a pre-apologetic statement to me.

 

I too think the 3 series BMW is an awesome car; have for years…that said, it isn’t and could never be a Camaro or Firebird.

I can appreciate how well made a 3 series might be…I can appreciate it’s smooth, responsive engine, how sure-footed it feels in a corner…how it can seem to stay composed under most any circumstance; but it will never be a Camaro nor would I want the Camaro to try to emulate a 3 series.

With my prior Firebirds and Camaro, I always knew I was sitting in something special…something beautiful…something that might wrestle with me when I tried to push it around a tight corner but was still just pure fun to drive…to own. I knew, with every generation of F-bodies that it WAS and F-body…something about the DNA was there even though the “DNA” was not necessarily visible to the naked eye.

What makes a Camaro/Firebird what it is, is probably more subjective than objective and, it isn’t just a matter of how much or how little it weighs or how "long" it is or whether it has an IRS or not - at least for those who do and always have loved the Camaro/Firebird, that subjective “test” that’s impossible to really put into words is the “test” that the fifth-generation will have to pass before we put down our money for one.

 

Actually, it's more like a 5 series.

Why??

The average Camaro SS LS1 coupe weighed just a mere 200 pounds less than the current V8 Impala SS sedan.

Perhaps we need to remember (or at the very least, bring this up) is the fact that the Mustang (and 4th gen Camaro) were the lightest V8 powered new cars on the planet with more than 2 seats. They wre also the cheapest V8 powered new cars on the planet.

If the 3700 pound GTO were still around, it would be the 2nd lightest car in the US (and likely the world) to have both IRS and a V8 engine. The far smaller, BMW 3 series in M3 form weighs in at just over 3500 pounds..... and costs $54,000.

If the agreement is that IRS adds 90 pounds all else being the same (I guess my 150 was too high), having air bags all around is going to be a given, and the new Camaro is going to be putting down another 100 to 150 (and possibly more) horsepower through the chassis and drivetrain, requiring even more weight adding upgrades, and the 4th gen Camaro was an absolute featherweight for it's size (probally aren't any production cars that big weighing as little as the 4th gen did), then it seems logical that even if the new Camaro weighs as much as a current Impala SS (unbelievably, it should weigh a little less) GM has done a commendable job keeping weight under control.

Yet, the 90th percentile of customers would care less.


To get lighter weight we'd have to start giving up things. Pricing and volume are off the table and non-negotiable because the car MUST be offer more style and value over the competition and that includes having a low price. The car also MUST sell at a certain volume, or it doesn't get made.

Now, within those confines (and this challenge is for everyone) what are we prepared to give up to get that "lighter" Camaro?

Horsepower?

A V8 engine?

Large wheels, tires, brakes?

IRS?.......

 

Yeah, the 5/7 series share a platform.



It's amazing how light the W-cars are compared to their replacement Zetas. The fullsized, 5 passenger, Monte Carlo SS weighs in at what I'd hope a 4 passenger Camaro would weigh...somewhere around 3,450 lbs.

When I said Impala coupe, I was actually referring to a Zeta based Impala.


Actually, the GTO still is around. There are roughly about one thousand NEW '06 GTOs available at dealers across the country. BMW btw, is projecting to sell more than double the volume of V8 M3's globally (100,000), compared to the number of Monaro/GTO's which were sold during their whole run - and at twice the price, too.

No. We agree that the reverse engineered and abnormally heavy MN12 system added 90 lbs to the SN95 Cobra when it was quickly grafted to it, 23 years after it's platform was developed.

 

So relative to the rest of the cars on the road, how would a 3 series sized Camaro compare to the relative size of the 1st gen back in its day? Wouldn't that almost seem like the appropriate size for a contemporary pony car?

 

I think yes.

 

So a 335i goes something like this:

L --- 180.3in
W -- 70.2
H -- 54.2
WB - 108.7
WT - 3571
300HP 300lbft
225/45R17 H tires
19/29mpg manual, 20/29mpg auto
$40,800

Camaro Concept
L --- 186.2in
W -- 79.6
H -- 53
WB - 110.5
WT - ???
400HP 400lbft
275/30R21 front, 305/30R22 rear
Fuel econ ???
Hopefully less than $40,000

I picked the 335i because it has the most power out of the regular 3 series. Honestly it is somewhat interesting when you look at the specs side by side. Camaro isn't terribly bigger than the 335i, although it would be noticeably longer and wider. If you look at the 328i though, it only weighs 3351... so the extra 70HP-100lbft comes at the price of about 200lbs. At any rate, the 3 series should have more fluff options that add a few pounds here and there compared to the Camaro, although the 3 series does have more sensibly sized wheels than the concept did. The production car will likely have lighter and more realistic wheels. But at any rate I think a Camaro sized similar to a 335i with an aluminum V8 could potentially come in between the 328i and 335i in weight... assuming some luxury weight is removed, and the weight saved with an NA motor counterbalances the extra weight for transmission and rear end reinforcement. The other thing that is clear is that it might be quite an accomplishment if the Camaro does come in at 3500lbs curbwt, but I don't see how it would be completely out of the question. We'll have to wait and see though.

 

One thing I forgot to ask. Is the Camaro supposed to have a steel skin or will it be composite/plastic? Oh, and whatever the weight though I hope the new Camaro does not come equipped with jello dampers like the 4th gen.

 

AFAIK, steel.

 

Im not very optimistic at a 34-3500 weight . Given the Commodores are damn near 4000 lbs , I just dont see how their going to cut out 4-500 lbs . I really also hope the 21/22 or even 20" wheel idea goes away too . With wheel wells designed to look proportionate to wheels that big , 18's would most likely look hideous .

 

I'm not really that optimistic either, but there is always hope. I figure it will maybe be somewhere in the 3600-3800 range depending on trim level and options.

 

Let's see.....
IF the Camaro comes in at the weight it should, it's not going to need as large of brakes to stop it, nor will it need bigger (wider) tires to maintain good traction and handling. Besides, anything bigger than 18" isn't going to do any good for performance OR looks.
IRS could be nice, but I can do without that too. The increase in wheelbase for the new Camaro will do a lot for it's ride quality. Besides, if I want something that rides nice, I'll get a Cadillac. Sign me up for a durable live axle, thank you very much.
The V8 is a must have. Why the hell have a muscle car without one?
A funny thing happened in 1997 - the Corvette came out with an all-aluminum engine AND it made it's way into the F-body in 1998. People with the "traditional" SBC would have to shell out more than 4 grand if they wanted an aluminum block; now you can get an LS2 crate engine for $5300. The point of me stating this is something that was once very "exotic" and EXPENSIVE (aluminum block engines) have filtered down from the Corvette and being mass produced much more cheaply. Face it, the once "revolutionary" production techniques introduced in the 5th-gen Corvette are 11 years old. I don't think it's too much to ask for much of that technology to make it into the 5th-gen Camaro.
Again, if the car weighs what it should (absolutely no more than 3400lbs), I'd give up some horsepower for that, as long as there's a good foundation to build on. I understand the LS3 will be in the 2009 Camaro, but even the LS2 would be awesome in that car. If 400hp isn't enough, a guy is a cam/heads swap from an easy 500hp without really affecting gas mileage.
Therefore, for those in this thread who think an affordable Camaro can't be built at a reasonable weight, I think you're dead wrong. If the Camaro comes in weighing 3800+lbs, it won't be because GM couldn't do it; it will be because GM cut too many corners building it.