Chewbacca

Nobody has been delusional enough to talk about an aluminum or magnesium frame in the new Camaro.

However, suspension bits and other components of "exotic" materials to keep the weight down has repeatedly been held up as only financially viable on vehicles at very high price points.

This is simply not so.

Bob Cosby

a) Virtually everybody is a 'potential' buyer, including me. I only speak for me and my issues.
b) The realities of what the car is likely to be aside.....if I wanted more space, I'd buy a G8/Impala. If I wanted the safest thing on the road, I'd probably buy a Volvo. I don't see drivability as being an issue.
c) That's a reality of today's world - I am not disputing that. That doesn't mean I have to accept the extra weight some of the stuff adds to the car just because I'm told to.

Ok. But if I stripped a car that was 300 lbs lighter to begin with, I'd bet I'd still end up ahead of the game.

Whilst I have no illusions about what GM has to do, it is my money that I could be parting with, and thus I will concentrate on what is important to me.

Not a chance. My 04 Cobra had a live axle, KB, modified T56, and several smaller mods before it was 6 months old.

Bob

Chuck!

The point of Six Sigma is not to drive out costs by reducing the quality of the part based upon the raw material used (unless of course there's a problem with the price you're paying for the raw material because the sourcing process is messed up).

Six Sigma is supposed to take a look at a process and drive out costs by reducing variance - better process tolerances which any engineer should appreciate - and defects as measured by defects per million opportunities (DPMO).

If the company you're working for is using it the way you described then no wonder you're so upset with the ideas of Lean and Six Sigma. Then again, if you gave me a hammer to tighten up a screw I'd be pretty upset, too.

HAZ-Matt

It would be nice to have a light Camaro. But unfortunately I don't know how many people would buy one.

Besides safety and emissions equipment, some of the more important things adding mass are gadgets like nav, power everything, LCD screens, sea heating and cooling and oversized wheels, like Bob Cosby pointed out. Additionally the size of vehicle also changes the mass somewhat. Although I am sure the engineers would not mind giving you a lightweight Camaro as it would not only boost performance numbers, it would not be one that would have as much appeal or it would no longer be a Camaro.

A "performance" version of the Camaro without any options or equipment beyond seats, steering wheel and drivetrain would certainly be lighter than the performance ones we will get but would not sell in any numbers that would generate a profit.

We could of course shrink the car and power it by an all aluminum inline four making it something of a more upscale 4 seat Solstice. But how many people would complain about lack of interior space and the fact that "a Camaro is a RWD V8"?

93RedDevilZ28

This is true, if 6S is in the hands of manfacturing. I think if sales/marketing gets their hand into the pot (which they always do), that's when good tools start to be misused or things get completely FUBAR. They tend to make some of the dumbest decisions based on even dumber reasoning, thus leaving the engineers/designers in a compromised situation.

I just think it's funny six sigma uses a skill/ranking system like that of a martial arts. "And entering the octagon, he carries a black belt in Six Sigma...."

Eric Bryant

It would be nice to see some trickle-down from the Vette in an area other than horsepower, though - wouldn't it?

At some point, we will have to come to the realization that folding up a bunch of mild steel and sticking it together with a handful of spotwelds is not the most efficient way to construct a vehicle. We're starting to see some advanced construction by folks like Audi and BMW in what I'd call a mass-production application, and I respect what Volvo has done with higher-strength steels in the construction of its unibodies. And, indeed, GM has shown some innovative weight-reduction technologies here and there (such as the control arms on my ancient GMT400, and the aluminum rear cradle and control arms on the AWD Aztec and minivans).

DvBoard

Might not be efficient, but it's cost effective. And until you can get the retards that are bitching in this thread to pay more for it (they won't), that's all your going to get.

all you want, but unless your willing to put up the $$$, you can't get ****.

Z284ever

Well, how much more?

SSbaby

Well, in case you missed it, Camaro is based on Zeta which underpins a 4 door sedan called Commodore.

So you don't need to haul 4 people, fine, Camaro is not for you.
Volvo is safer than a GM SUV? Fine, Camaro is not for you.
Fine, you don't need IRS as you would be happy with a relatively poor ride over some bumpy roads.
No one is telling you to accept. It's the reality of today's world. As i said, GM is not the only evil empire. The new Toyota Corolla has gained between 110 - 250 lbs, depending on model. If a new small car gains that much weight, don't expect a mass produced performance vehicle to weigh as much as the exotics.
It's your choice, Bob. Buy a used (like 30 yr old) vehicle perhaps?

So you're potentially willing to spend more? GM is in the business to make money. If you're willing to pay more for exotic materials, tell GM you've already paid the deposit for Camaro... just like the other 100,000 potential customers.

Good luck with your project!

TOO Z MAXX

My 4th gen Camaro SS weighed in at just iunder 3400pounds. The only thing missing was the spare tire, jack and backseat. Please tell me where the new Camaro is going to gain 200+ pounds. Indy rear is not much of a weight gain, so where is the rest coming from? What is all this so called new safety equipment I keep hearing about? From what I have been reading the new LS3 is actually lighter than an LS1. If the new mustang GT weighs in at just under 3500 pounds, their is absolutly no reason why the new Camaro cant do the same. The LS3 is probably 100 pounds lighter than Fords V8. I just dont see why we need the weight.
For me I would be willing to pay an extra 3 to 4k for a lightweight Camaro. Aluminum suspension pieces, magnesium engine cradles, carbon fiber hood, doors and fenders could be part of that option. It would be like the 1LE package of old.

QATransAm

Some of you guys are...really selling this car!

It going to be heavy - and you're going to have to like it!
Stop making threads about weight - HIGH HORSEPOWER = HEAVY!
Don't blame GM - They only want your money - thats all!

PuuuuuhhhhLEASE! Whats this board for anyways?

We the people, the consumer...keep corporations in buisness, NOT the other way around! To say that someone is going to 'take my place in line' to buy something i have an issue with, wow...sounds like something the dealer would say.

Buying a car puts most people in the hole for 4-5 years, thou should get what one wants, its not a privilege, its a damn choice. No one should be told to shut up about something, no matter how 'old' it might look, like its really ruining your day. Scan down, or up to the next thread!

HP #'s sell, and weight is completely ignored! At 3800+lbs, no worries about the 5th stepping on her majesty's toes.

93Phoenix

What if I don't want oversized wheels, navigation or power anything. I love Camaros for their looks, their performance and their sound. Not their smooth ride and LCD screens wtf? If I wanted that I wouldn't be driving a Camaro. I think the car has fallen from it's roots of being a common man's Corvette to a wannabe G37, M3 with a V8.

As for the weight, I'd love the Z28 to be between 3500-3700, I don't think this is unreasonable and being powered by the LS3 should still rip up the street.

SSbaby

Having driven a VE SS I can tell you that at roughly 400 lbs more than my own VX SS, the VE is by far more enjoyable to drive than my car.

Let me explain more about VE:

It's easier to throw around corners. Balance is almost neutral but veers slightly toward understeer.
It changes direction far more easily than my car.
It steers accurately and loads up nicely at speed.
It absorbs the bumps with ease thanks to the more sophisticated suspension.

If you asked me which is the lighter car, I'd swear to you I would say the VE without blinking an eyelid. It just feels so much lighter on its feet. BUT its 400 lbs heavier!!!

The only area where the extra weight would seriously hamper performance is in a straight line. If straight line performance is all that matters to you then your focus is waaay too narrow for what will be a serious performance vehicle.

By 'performance' I mean TOTAL performance, not straight-line-ONLY.

I'm not making excuses for GM. I'm merely stating wait for a test drive before canning the car before its release.

crYnOid

Agreed. This is what I have found with my VE SSV. I also found that when you get the mild understeer, while taking corner quickly, if you add a little throttle the car returns to being neutral. You have to be brave, or know the roads, to be on the gas in a corner tho.....

I have also found that if I go into a corner waaaaaaay to fast I can get massive understeer found this out last Monday

DvBoard

You want it to be like the vette, you'll be paying a similar price. I can tell you now that most people paying that price, won't be buying a camaro.