You keep saying stop changing the subject...precisely what subject am I changing??? Care to explain that?

That aside, where exactly did I say your "numbers are bad"??? Can you find the quote on that for me?

Your "numbers" may be 100% accurate; that doesn't mean your interpretation of them and what they actually mean is accurate.

And as for "where are my numbers"...you really think I should put in the time to put an analysis together and write it up and post it here? I suppose you think that because it's going to actually make a difference to anyone here? Do you really think any of the GM kool-aid drinkers are going to change their minds regardless of what I say or what sources I cite?

If God himself (or herself) put a post on here supporting what I've been saying it wouldn't make a bit of difference to you and those of your mindset.

Maybe I will, sometime over the weekend, put something together but don't hold your breath...more than likely I'll be out driving my "evil" Nissan 350Z or using my Titan to haul my Christmas tree home.

 

well give it a shot..better than just telling us "wrong" with no explination but your words. and like you say our words mean nothing. so show us what you find is fact.

 

Side note..I nearly had bud comming out my nose from laughing at this..good one..

 

I am baffled. I am totally 100% with you on our stance regarding trade with China (in particular... China). Yet I look at your statement above and I can't help but wonder about your logic.

Your "problem isn't with Wal-Mart" you say... it's with "the crap they carry made by a true enemy of the United States who would like nothing better than to drop a few nukes on our heads."

Robert, please explain to me WHO is responsible for the products they carry? If not Wal-Mart, then who?

You see, I hold the company accountable for that responsibility, which means I have a problem with Wal-Mart for loading their shelves with foreign sh1+ in the first place. (We won't even get into the issue of how Wal-Mart is forcing American companies to move their manufacturing operations to China or lose their contracts, etc.)

I don't care how much profitability there is in a product move, trading with countries that have no scruples is no different than selling your soul to the devil - a short-term gain that will be a long-term disaster, and potentially one that we may never recover from.

More on-topic, I don't see how you can take a defensible position to support foreign car companies and try to make a case that they are "as good as" or "better" for our US economy than a domestic one.
Suppose you opt for the Ford or GM that has 80% US content over another one that has 50% content... even if that difference is just $10/day more in domestic content components, that's $10/day more GDP, more taxes, more wages, more benefits, more charity, more investment, etc than would be otherwise. How is that NOT helpful? not the right thing to do? not good for the USA?

1) Can I say that NisToyHon are not making jobs in the USA - of course not.
2) Can I say that NisToyHon have not made the US carmakers improve their products - sure they have.
3) Can I say that NisToyHon don't have good quality products at a decent price - sure they do.

BUT...
1) Are they also not a primary cause of people losing jobs at $25-50/hour? YUP.
2) Are US cars now on-par or even exceeding the imports in initial quality, satisfaction, and durability ratings? YUP.
3) Are US makers offering similar cars at equal pricing and performance to those import models? YUP.

In Depth...
1) It is an oxy-moron to stand back and see foreign competition forcing hundreds of thousands of workers out of factories where they were making good salaries, yet PRAISE these same companies for hiring a FRACTION of the people back at 1/4-1/2 of their original salaries and reduced benefits. In fact, most factories (Toyota especially) prefer not to hire main line workers, but instead want to use contracted labor so they can fluctuate labor levels with production needs and not be burdened with benefit issues at all. I don't put faith or weight behind the lines that "they are employing Americans", because the Americans they are employing are DESPERATE FOR WORK, they are not all there because that's where they want to be.
2) Buick has pounded the competition in line efficiency, initial quality, and customer satisfaction for several years now - there are JD Powers and other independent publications all over this board and the internet to back it up. GM in particular has done an astounding job at putting out great cars that are on parity (or better) with anything from NisToyHon. Ford has done fantastic with their interiors and initial quality too, but not as good overall as GM. It's irrefutable that the domestic makers have come quantum leaps in their quality - yet the stigma from the late 70's and early 80's years of "plastic sh1+" and "planned-obsolesence" still remains and seems to be something that many Americans won't let go of - sadly.
3) Ford's Focus is a world-class car - period. Here in Europe, it is the preffered compact above all others - bar none. The Mondeo is another. Mustang is unrivalled in loyalty and following, and has the best bang-for-the-buck around. GM also offers some real winners - the Impala is a wonder-car, Saturn has some shared platforms that are global-performers, the G6 is awesome. Both companies offer cars with equal or better mileage ratings - all in the 30's MPG. With pricing that is often within 5-10% on comparable models, one can hardly argue that the value is not there.

So it boils down to either STYLING (which is purely subjective and something neither you or I can argue about), AVAILABILITY (which could be factored by dealers, transportation, sales volume, and numerous other variable that may not even involve the manufacturer at all), and PREFERENCE (which could be covered under "brand-loyalty", "past experiences", "recommendations", or even - let's admit it - "patriotism").

If no American company offers you the styling you like - no excuses necessary.
If you can't get the American car you want in a decent amount of time - fine.
If you simply prefer an import because you work for the company, had bad experiences with another brand, etc - no problem.
BUT DON"T TRY TO APPEASE YOUR CONSCIENCE OR EXPECT OTHERS TO AGREE WITH YOU THAT YOUR DECISION TO BUY FOREIGN BRANDS HAS NOT HARMED AMERICA ECONOMICALLY.

I'm with you 100% on China friend - no doubt - but you need to review your thoughts on Wal-Mart (the company) and just how foreign trade and responsible buying can affect our lives for today and tomorrow.

 

Say you want an aftermarket stereo/DVD/NAV unit for your car...
If you could get a $1400 unit for your car for $250 - brand-new in the box - from some guy on a street-corner, would you buy it?
What if you knew it was stolen - would you still buy it?
Would it bother you knowing you possess stolen goods and that is illegal?
Would it bother you even more if you found out that a guy was killed during the robbery that netted this unit?
Or could you pay for it and walk away thinking ,"Hey, I got an AWESOME deal on this thing!" and never have another thought about it?

Now say you want a new car...
You can buy a Chery for a mere $7995 and it's all you need.
Did some official in Shanghai get paid under the table to get this car through customs quick and easy? - Yup.
Were some of the steel parts made in India using child labor? - Yup.
Were chemicals used to machine parts for the car dumped into canals by the sub-contractor? - Yup.
Did people in the paint line suck-in paint because they don't use expensive filtration systems? - Yup.
Did the tire plant spew toxic levels of sulphur into the air during the vulcanizing process because their country does not regulate emissions? - Yup.
Did Liu-Zhang lose a finger putting in your windshiels because they don't have PPE and safe practices in China? - Maybe.
Did 6000 miners die in coal mines last year digging for coal to power the plants that make the products and components? - Yup.
Can you pay $7995 for that new Chery and drive it home with a smile on your face, thinking ,"Hey, I got an AWESOME deal on this thing!" and never have another thought about it?

Illegal is illegal. Unethical is unethical. Inhumane is inhumane.
I don't care how far removed you are from the "negative" activity... if you participate, you are a player, and you are supporting it if your cash is going that way. Crude, harsh reality check, huh? Still bothers me at how much of it goes on that we don't know about and support it unknowingly.
But I can PROMISE you, I don't support it (any product, service, etc) if I know there is something wrong underlying.

My point here is that there is more to buying something than "the price".
There's the price paid in monetary value, then there is the price paid in intangibles like environmetal damage, human health concerns, and ethical behavior. I maintain a buyer is just as responsible for where he allows his money to go as the seller is for putting it there.

You stated,"But I bet you 1/2 of the people here that want all manufacturing back here in the USA would be pissed when they have to pay double the price for clothes and toys for their children."
Let me ask you this... what's the difference if I pay twice as much for clothes or toys, or get forced to take a job making half as much as I do now?
Either way, my spendable cash is being reduced, and hence my standard of living. Personally, I am already paying premiums for most things I buy, because I am conscienciously buying American goods from local suppliers wherever possible. I buy Craftsman, Snap-On, SK-Wayne, and Armstrong. I buy Lee, Hanes, and Dockers after inspecting the labels closely. I buy Dexter dress shoes. I buy P&G house goods. Motorcraft oil filters, Douglas batteries, Timken bearings, and Allied Signal components.

So while I agree that some people will be pizzed about paying more, they will also be just as pizzed when they get their pink slip and start living on government benefits and food stamps. At least when you are making a good salary, you have the CHOICE of what you buy and where it comes from, at least until your job is sent offshore... but when you get government cheese, well, you get government cheese - no choice about it, is there?

BTW - great to hear someone is hiring at $25/hr and bringing 2000-3000 jobs to your area.
IBM used to do that 25 years ago for the same money.
Ford, GM, and Mopar too.
GE, Westinghouse.
John Deere, Massey-Fergusson, International Harvester, Caterpillar.
All these companies used to hire like that when they were opening new plants and they paid incredibly well.
Maybe 3000 of the 86,000* (see ref below) jobs lost to Ford, GM, and DCX will be rehired at your local gold-mine, making 70-80% of what they were when they were whacked this year. Now what will we do with the other 83,000 moms and dads that have families to feed this year?
I know - let's encourage them to "buy cheaper products so their money will go farther".

* Ford to Cut Up to 30,000 Jobs and 14 Plants in Next 6 Years
"...the Big Three automakers have eliminated or plan to eliminate 86,000 jobs."

You're local success story is great - really it is, but it is local to you and is not typical or indicative of what is going on across our nation as a whole. Feel lucky that you have a good thing locally, and then look at the bigger picture of what is going on around the nation. More neighborhoods are dying economically than are developing.

Here's my last thought...
Get a job at this new "foreign-owned" place, make lots of money from them, and spend it all on American goods! Don't buy ANY of the products/services that they produce there! What's good for the goose...

 

Great posts ProudPony, as usual! And your advice at the end, is right on the money. I really wish those workers would do that. This subject is a real sore spot for me, and my emotions sometimes get the better of me. I just can't understand for the life of me, how people.............Americans........, can not see the damage they are doing to America, with this kind of thinking, and more specifically, with their purchases. They are absolutely without any doubt in my mind, driving jobs overseas. And as for the stigma the American brands still have, I blame the press for that!. One of the main reasons, I despise them, with such passion. They are dirty dogs, I wouldn't spend a dime on their rags, papers, whatever. The slimes, the *** rags, the lot of em', are useless pond scum, I hope they all go out of business.

 

Thanks Proud Pony,

It goes way back to my original statement: Where does the profit go? I have given my replies that the profit is for the people here in the U.S. that work live build or survive by these companies staying alive. Not the people in Japan or China or india. The people that it matters the most too the people here in the U.S. the people that run the company here in the U.S. These people are depending on said U.S. Companies to do good and keep doing good. If they do good they will not send things overseas . Buying things in the U.S. say like a F-150 built here in the U.S. will help out more to the economy than a Titan built here as ProudPony pointed out.

Now a side note as to "outsourcing" to Canada and Mexico. Now before I start let me say this, NO outsourcing to other countries is not the best for the U.S. economy. with that said and it being done for many reasons not just cheaper.
Been looking over a few sites. U.S. goverment and Canadian goverment sites.
You know who is the two largest contributors to the U.S. economy as far as tourism and cross the boarder spending? You got it, Canada and Mexico are the leading countries that pump BILLIONS back into the american economy each year. compared to our crossing to Canada and Mexico.They dwarf other in comparison as far as putting money back into our economy. Yes, it is true they are land tied to us from the north and south and the esiest to do so. Now like I said outsourcing is not the best for the U.S. economy. But sticks for stones you measure it up those two countries put billions back into our economy each year from people crossing the boarder on day trips. Millions at a time every day, those same people that might work in a GM plant or supplier in Canada or Mexico or people that have nothing to do with it at all just comming here to buy something. It like I said dwarfs the 3rd and 4th contibutor by a larger margin. It might not be having a plant here in the U.S. building things giving to the U.S. economy. But it sure is nice to know were getting one heck of a "kickback" from them being employed by a U.S. company making products in either Mexico or Canada.

 

Well...I'm sure the "kickback" is of great comfort to the guy that used to work for GM but doesn't have a job anymore because GM decided to outsource the job he did to Canada or Mexico!

 

ohh great comback one trick pony. show me all these wonderful jobs that are being sent to Canada or Mexico by the millions? Shutting dwn the plants and packing up the factories as fast as you say? you make it sound like they are closing a plant a week and sending out outside the U.S.? Clearly not the case, but you make it your standing point.
How bout tackliing this one.
All the other wonderful comments by Proud Pony, DerekM, centric and the rest (with some colorful words) to back what we state yet you pick a "side note" to defend yourself. Hell I will take a kickback rather than nothing helping Japan profit with no return, profiting from people like you thinking that like stated it makes no diffrence if they buy GM or Ford or Toyota or Nissan.
You have wonderful insight from Proud Pony, yet nothing back from that. (Though I thought I would quote it above to make my point about a little kickback a little more prominent, maybee you missed it)
Would love to hear your numbers that you might look up, or even your argument against Proud Pony's topic of conversation. And whatever happened to the question posed. What is an American company to you? I know I listed many that are in our lives everyday and thought of as american brands or products and as american as the flag I put out on my porch. OR the wonderful one that you dont answer for some great unknown reason, Round and round and round we go! Does Robert Nashville work for Nissan is the question we throw...yet no answer to that fact. But please dont let that detract from the first one I asked. all in sucsession..

 

or was it cus people were buying foreign nameplates like yourself. Rather than the GM he was helping make here in the U.S.? But again it doesnt matter what you buy right?? right???

 

They only answer you are ever going to receive to that question was given weeks ago in another thread and was reposted in this thread (post #57 on page 4)...since you obviously missed it here it is again...

That's the only answer you are ever going to get - I really don't care if you don't like it.

 

Saying I had no problem with Wal-Mart was a poor choice of words…in short, I detest Wal-Mart and I’ve been “Wal-Mart clean and sober” for almost nine years now. The choice of words was for the sake of brevity and because I didn’t want to turn the thread into a discussion of Wal-Mart.

Nevertheless….

I’ve seen first hand…very first hand how they treat the companies they buy product from…around 1997 I was working as an IC for Singer Sewing Company; Singer’s industrial products division had been here in Tennessee since the late 40’s but at this time, they had moved their consumer products division from New Jersey to Tennessee (this was shortly before their bankruptcy; a road they were quickly heading down).

Anyway, I was brought in to help them straighten out a huge problem they had with their receivables...companies like Wal-Mart, K-Mart, and May Company who would buy a half-million worth of sewing machines at a time and then take deductions of tens of thoursands of dollars claiming everything form the wrong color package to shipping late, shipping early...you name it they had had a reason to short-pay the invoice and it was costing Singer hundreds of thousans a month.

During that process I found a mistake on Wal-Mart’s part to the tune of over $1.5M. It took weeks just to get a live person on the phone at Wal-Mart’s headquarters and this joker VP was a real ***. However, he did finally agree that Wal-Mart had made the error and owed Singer the money. Even so, it still took over eight months before they coughed it up.

I then went on to prove to Singer's managemet that Wal-Mart actualy made substantially MORE profit by taking a sewing maching as a return and sending it back to Singer than they did in actualy just selling the machine to a customer...even so, Singer wouldn't stop doing business with Wal-Mart (guess it isn't difficult to se why Singer wound up bankrupt).

Bottom line is, however, as much as I hate Wal-Mart and how they do business, I see their carrying China’s junk on their shelves (and the idiots who buy it) as far more dangerous and destructive than Wal-Mart itself is.

I’ll comment more on the rest of your post later.

 

Dont want to distract but good point.

let me put this in automobile terms as we see our side:

Bottom line is, however, as much as we dont like Toyota and how they do business, I see their carrying Japans cars on thier lots (and the idiots who buy it) as far more dangerous and destructive than Toyota itself is.

See I know it has to start with our people, and our goverment to actually have something change. But being brainwashed so much into the thinking the U.S. think they are buying something that is in the long run turning our country against itself.Then it goes from there.

 

Then you should have stopped there.

That is such a truly idiotic comparison it’s difficult to believe someone would write it up and post it. Is that really the best you have to offer to this discussion?

Why don’t you take a look at some of the recent studies showing that China is militarizing at an alarming rate…almost on a war footing…spending far more of its GNP on its military than is has any rational need to do. After you research that a bit, think about WHY they might be dong it?

Do you think it’s because China wants to live peacefully with its neighbors? Do you think it’s because they have belligerent countries preparing to attack them? Maybe they are afraid of the mighty Taiwan or South Korea?

Maybe, just maybe they have other plans.

Oh…and why do you think they have purchased (and stolen) ballistic missile technology from the US and the west and are pursuing a significant nuclear weapons program…and why, as has just recently been revealed, has China developed weapons specifically to sink US aircraft carriers?

Now tell me, when was the last time you heard anything about how Japan is increasing its military or pointing ICBMs at the US?

Tell me, between Japan and China, who do you think wants to destroy western civilization and western capitalism and western democracy?

Tell me, between Japan and China, who do you think poses the greatest threat to the free world since Hitler’s Germany?

If you honestly think that the threat of Japan’s auto industry is even on the same plane of existence with China’s intentions then you are simply so far removed from reality that nothing will reach you.

You go on “not buying Toyota’s” but you should probably spend some time learning Chinese.

 

again off subject...good one Robert..I read two sentences of what you just posted. Dont want to distract you again from the now numorous questions put your way by the others..Like it was said you like to change the subject..at least Isay side note. you just take the ball and run with it hopeing people forget what was really asked.