You want to fire guns fine, I said lets agree to disagree..Well I guess there is no way out unless you think win. Well, two words WAKE UP! No wonder no ones touching you with a ten foot pole and gives you crap, you got your head so far up the other end you can see daylight!!!

your kidding right??? I am not going to get into this but your kidding right? So I guess waving the flag for Nissan is better for America than trying to use all this vast knowledge you have to get the U.S. economy back on track and not help a countries economy overseas.

WRONG???!!?!?! Dude Its defeating your competition, obviously you havnt read what I have said and obviously you don't believe it. Let me say this and it is FACT not read in books not in school it is a practiced way of life in Japan It is practically part of their religion. THEY WORK FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF JAPAN! Not a corporation not for a stockholder, not for anyone but the greater good of their country. Are you Japanese? I'm not but I can tell you being good friend with many people from Japan I have worked with them and grew up with them, learning from their history and culture for 15 years has shown me this! Let me tell you this for all your masters and all your booksmarts go to Japan and see if you will get a job in your field. You would be flipping burgers. They work totally different from us their strategy for business is totally different from ours. They have people come over here to learn how to do business our way just so they can interact and profit with capitalistic ways of doing business, why? cus they don't do it that way over there..if you don't beleive me read what I said a little while back... And back to setting up shop on U.S. soil, military way of thinking. Back when countries would do trading with far off lands trading areas controlled by a country were built up and military forts would be built to protect their interests in that part of the world??? What do you think Japan is doing?? Building up its might here in the U.S.. Toyota wants to be the #1 automaker in the world, how do you do this? Destroy GM on its home turf no matter the cost. Don't give me the marketing book definition of this, its fact. To defeat your rival you have to do it in every aspect at any cost. They took the chance in the 80's and 90's to build what they have now and it cost us dearly. Toyota has billions to burn why? People are still thinking its 1987 and GM cant build a car worth crap and Toyotas are worth every penny. UTTER B.S.! So take that into consideration when your defending Nissan.
It is started with Toyota, Honda, Nissan and so on have one goal to come in here and obliterate the competition till there is no U.S. car makers anymore.
So go one and say "well that's just business, to do just that." Well, lets see how much you like living in a country that's the former shell of itself when Toyota is the car company of choice here and GM is a memory. Toyota, Nissan, Honda ARE loyal to Japan, again not a stockholder or a CEO.. you think they will care what happens to the U.S. economy if it goes belly up we end up in another depression? Nope just pack up and leave. So yea keep saying it doesn't matter where you buy your cars cus in the end it does. The kid with the most wins and Toyotas got a huge lead right now and the rest of the import companies are riding the coat tails of them.


How long do you want to wait for the car 2012 and the real truth as you put it is this, go look up the rating of that plant i am not indulging in that endeavor to prove my point, heck do a search here and you will see some of the FACTS of what its being made there. But yet again this all stems for the fact that you said GM was not shouting about building cars outside of the U.S.. Guess they are and damn proud of it and making it a car that needs to win, but whatever I guess the new Camaro is going to be a cheap POS Canadian car..keep going back to your cheaper B.S. I guess anything in Canada is cheap. The real reason: quality of the cars and everything else that makes that plant a top choice. And kinda funny that I remember GM saying that they are learning from that plants management model and implementing it in the new plants they are converting in the next few years for the new cars???? But whatever why should you care again your waving the flag of Nissan.

Yup and when that happens Toyota and your little pal Nissan will roll in here and take over (already got the shops set up here) ohh but its just business, dollars for yen...hmmm..you keep thinking that yourself as you try and find work....America will be just that "America" with a rising sun over its autodealers.

OHHH WAIT!!! Hold the boat....WTF...okay...Now this is funny... but now I think I get it. Damn wasted days arguing with you..but goes back to a little question asked... Everytime you get the question of who or what you do for work. Even when they say you work for Nissan you clam up and say its not part of this conversation. WELL. sure it is........you got some kinda stake in Nissan expanding and moving forward. Whether its business or sales or what not but its something. If it is then that's relevant to this whole argument. Your defending your work and what brings you money. All be it behind "books" your putting up a huge argument for the other side.
All you have is your book smarts telling you that I am wrong..wrong wrong..right???
Well like you said I have faith.
Faith: that buying American means something!
Faith: that our goverment is going to level the playing feild and lets see how fair Toyota, Honda and your buddies Nissan deal with it.
Faith: that With this GM Ford and DCX can pull out from under the shadows of 30 years ago and drive the U.S. economy forward.
Faith: that buying the next Camaro, though built in Canada is in some small way still helping our economy grow instead of an import company.
Faith: that people like me that hold values over dollars are in some type of power of said American companies and make choices for the U.S. and its spirit and not let it wither away untill dust like it will with the way you think.
Faith: that people here in the U.S. wake up and find out how much they are damaging the middle class by supporting views like your own.
Sometimes a little faith makes things right! That is what America needs a few things to go right and stop going wrong.

So Robert I go back to what do you do for work??? I am defending what I hold dear in this country. The middle class is my work and way of life and it will go the way of the dodo if something is not done and by god helping import car companies iIS SURE NOT HELPING US.If you sidestep the question or not think its relevant then I have my answer. It must be more than your masters. I know that I have vested 15 years of art, history, school, and interacting with people from Japan to know alot more from both sides and how they live here in the U.S. and in Japan its called life. Something a text book for a masters degree will never give you as a fact. I can tell you one thing unless you can give me more than just what I ask then you know what I might not be 100% right but you are dead wrong in your way of thinking if we as a country are going to survive. I really hope that the majority of the way the U.S. thinks is not anywhere near what you think of as America. Were all in trouble.

 

transplants building?? Where were they transplanted from? had to come from somewhere else?? No this is like I stated before the "fort" of an import company to secure thier interests in the region. Battle or business they use the same tactics..
and your nissan praising is not helping our way of life at all.

 

No, I’m not kidding.

You want to define what’s “American” because of the nameplate on the front…because that company was “American” forty years ago while ignoring where it was built, by whom it was built and where the parts originated and every other facet of the vehicle’s construction then you are free to do so but you are still wrong.

I know it makes some people feel comfortable to call GM and Ford “American” and they’ll ignore any fact to do so but they are still wrong.

You want to believe GM or Ford, as corporate entities, are loyal to anything but themselves and their bottom line you are free to do so but you are wrong.

You want to blame Toyota and Honda and Nissan for the decline of America’s middle class you are free to do so but you would be wrong…GM and Ford and every other major, so-called “American” company are falling all over themselves to send their jobs overseas while still wrapping themselves up in the flag and apple pie and claiming to be “American” – what’s sad is that a lot of people believe what they are shoveling.

You want to believe that the transplants have invested billions here as a marketing ploy you are free to do so but you are wrong…I don’t care how well you claim to know the Japanese style of business or how many Japanese friends you have, or how much time you’ve spent in Japan; no company is going to make a billion dollar capital investment on a single new manufacturing plant in the US and hire and train thousands of American workers just to be able to claim that the vehicles built in that plant were built in America and they certainly aren’t going to do so over and over again.

If you really think that “marketing ploy” is such a good deal for Toyota or Nissan then let me offer you a similar deal - send me $1,000 and I’ll send you $5.00 back – that’s about how good a “marketing ploy” it is for the transplants to manufacture here just so they can claim their vehicles are built here.

As to the Camaro being built in Canada – if GM is really proud of that fact and you can still claim with a straight face that GM is an “American” company then there is apparently no fact you are not willing to overlook. If GM is doing it truly because of “quality” then what does that say about American manufacturing - out of all of GM’s plants left in the US is there really not one capable of producing a quality vehicle? Is that what GM is saying?

I say their primary and probably their only motivation in building the Camaro in Canada is costs. I also suspect that if they could build the Camaro in China and then import it back here and still get a gullible public to think it’s an “American” car they would do so in a heartbeat if it shaved a $1 off their total cost/unit.

 

wonderful..
Parts, profit and people and percentage are majority here and thats what makes it American. 40 years ago they were in Michigan, where are they now?? Same place? where do the CEO's live?? the U.S. .and to go back to the cars..tell me how many cars are actually built by GM outside the U.S. imported to here. you make it sound like a huge amount. 5 maybee an exagerated 10 platforms.. if that?? wow from how many cars models that GM through its divisions..anyone want to correct me or make a correct count?
So people that work live and do busniss here in America with the U.S. dollar are not american. Damn I guess I gotta stop drinking Coke then and my god Football and Baseball too..NFL is in Europe now too, guess we cant call it "football american" anymore and Baseball the "great American pastime" is in Japan I guess those are not American ideas anymore...Thank god for Nissan, thank god for you to point it out..Just dont see anythign american anymore...hell our fireworks for the 4th of July are made in China. Crap gotta cancel the 4th cus fireworks from China are not American. See the simplicity of this, This is America and Football, Baseball, 4th of July and GM are AMERICAN. It is what we beleive in and you want to think that way go sleep in your altima for 7 days..


Nope...again..I said Toyota..go back and READ..I said Toyota.Honda and Nissan.not Ford not GM. I did say that I hoped that people that are in positions of power have a little pride in a company that has its roots here from 40 years ago and would vision this in a way that it would get them back on track. So dont know how I can be wrong about something I did not say.

Nope I never blamed Toyota or Honda directly so how am I wrong..I blamed the american people that are buying a Toyota or honda or a Nissan, if you go back and will know toyota is beating us at our own game like I stated. The notion of perceived quality and the fact that "hey Toyotas are built in the U.S they are an American car." That is a bunch of BS and you know it. Your school books be damned cus in the fact is like I have stated WHERE IS THE PROFIT SHOWING UP HERE OR THERE??? If its here then they must be an American company, but wait its in Yen??? Ohh yea thats Japan.

hmm I think I made myself clear on that but I guess you missed the idea of battle and business? with the little ships and merchants.and the idea of what I meant by what I know about Japan, your response had nothign to do with it, it was never anythign I said...again already stated that so why rehashing it again when I gave you an explination. And WTF is a Transplant..call it what it is an Import car maker building cars here in the U.S.. They are doing it for one thing. To wipe out the U.S. Auto industry and have shops set up here already. Not to many GM facilities in Japan are there? Goes back to the level playing field. is it? No. You call it a Transplant..from where it had to come from somewhere. what the idea? the building ofthe cars? what? I call it a "Fort" to take the battle to us on our home soil, why? OUR GOVERMENT LET THEM..again level playing field..

again with the rehash, marketing ploy, hows this for a better term.. MENTAL PLOY..they got in the average joe of the U.S. that thinks they are buying a toyota from here its not different than buying a Buick..ohh wait you already think that way. nevermind.. That is what is destroying the middle class..this marketing ploy. It fails if it doesnt work. so your 1000=5 is BS, cus its working better than thet could imagine. That is declining the middle class.

Nope, just you, again a rehash of what I already explained. Can someone else turn the mic on, I dont think he has figured it out. Anyone want to chime in. This plant was not asigned anythign after it being fitted to build the Camaro..you going to have the plant that makes the CTS ( another high rated plant in the U.S.) stop making the cars shut down for a while and then start making the Camaro. ok where is the CTS being built now?? Dont feed me this line of crap okay..this was the plant that was closest in line that had a great quality rating to do the job..nothing else. you were the one refering to Canadian product as cheap cus its outside the U.S.

Really reaching now huh?? Last time I checked the only thing thats really diffrent with Canada is govermentized health care..not much diffrent Canada has a Auto union and set up much the same way... so I dont know where you reaching to here..

so bottom line you did not answer a damn question I posed to you or anything relevant to the last post except for the people I have known for the last 15 years.

I am not buying your line of dribble anymore..go spout off about your textbook knowledge to someone else that cant see that your so caught up in what you think is going on.
Its just a book go put that to the test and check back with me after..say 15 years...

 

Look…this is really going nowhere. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine and my opinion is that you are wrong and there really isn’t anything you are going to say that’s going to convince me otherwise.

I’ve been around business a long, long, time and have been a “car nut” for even longer…I’ve been in most countries of the world and have spent extended time in more than a few…I am not just some wet-behind-the-ears novice who only knows what a text book has told him but if you want to dismiss everything I say because you don’t agree or simply don’t want to believe it that’s fine…you can…I’m not going to loose any sleep over it.

You can go on believing what you want to believe...belief isn't evidence...belief isn’t fact.

Belief is a good thing when talking about religion; not necessarily a good thing when talking about anything other than religion. It seems, however, that there are a lot of people who have elevated “believing in GM as an American" company (simply because it used to be and in the face of any fact ton the contrary) to an almost religions conviction.

You want to believe buying a "Chevrolet" made in Mexico actually helps the US economy more than buying a Honda built in Ohio you are free to believe that...you're just wrong.

Yes; GM and Ford still build a majority of their vehicles in the US but “American” companies…companies that actually care about America don't send production to China and Mexico and Canada or source more and more of their parts from there; not when they have plants sitting idle or soon to be decommissioned in the US and are laying off workers by the tens of thousands. It is stunning to me how some will defend GM and Ford for doing what I just described above while concurrently deriding Honda and Toyota and BMW and MB and Nissan and others who have and still are building plants here and employing Americans.

By the way...you need to actually read what I wrote instead of what you wanted me to write...I have NEVER said that Canadian built cars are CHEAP...I said they COST LESS as in it cost less to produce a car in Canada than in the US and that is THE reason GM will build the next Camaro there.

And yes, it is sad, very, very sad that our fireworks and 80% of the products in our stores and even our military's uniforms are made in China...something to be proud of for sure.

 

Like I said it could stopped at we agree to disagree. but you didnt want it to. So just firing back my "facts" am I wrong? Nope why? I see what I have seen. Does that make you wrong? no. But dont tell me the same thing when you say I am wrong. So like you said lets stop here. I could go one and on and on. but one final question and thats it. no disertation of this that or the other thing about ploys, "america" or marketing. Just a simple question.
you said:
and promoting or whatever it is you do for Nissan is better for America???
Thats all I ask..is it better?

 

Quick facts....

DCX/Ford/GM are responsible directly and indirectly for over 7 million jobs in the US.

DCX/Ford/GM spent $38 Billion in capital investments in the US over the last 4 years 2002-2005.

GM’s capital investment in the United States from 1999 thru 2003 was $20Billion. Toyota’s capital investment from 1980 thru 2003 was $10.7Billion. Nissan’s? 2.8Billion from 1980 thru 2003…Honda? $5.6Billion – ’80 thru ’03.

GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product (GNP) is 4 times that of Toyota.

DCX/Ford/GM spent $21B on R&D in 2005.

DCX/Ford/GM purchased $171 Billion in parts and components from the US in 2005.

82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

 

Thanks to you Derek M. for finding out some of what I asked. thats all it boils down to is what my original point was profit.Where does it go to a company here in the U.S. where it would benifit the U.S. and the 7 million jobs directly and indirectly. Or to over seas where it helps import companies and the country of origin.
IF that ever changes and like Robert stated they bocome office buildings of car companies here then YES I will not think twice to throw the towel in on them, but I think by that time you will see the economy in a big problem, the big 2.5 are a MAJOR..MAJOR driving force in this economy, if they fall WE ALL FALL. That is a fact.

 

I'm proud to say that I have not had to post a single word in this entire debate!

I have not changed my sig since I joined the board...

 

These figures look "familar" and if memory servers, are of questionable origin.

How about citing the source or sources for these?

 

Various sources....

The search feature for one: http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375431

Other numbers... come from the AutoLineDetroit episode airing on Speed 11/26.

 

When Toyota or Honda or Ford or GM or DCX or Nissan or BMW or MB or Mini or VW or Audi or any other car nameplate sells a car in the US, yes...it's good for the US and the hundreds of thousands of people along the way that exists to support or enhance, either directly or indirectly, that vehicle (from the trucking company that moves the vehicle form point A to point B to the custom audio shop that installs a high-end sound system). When the vehicle sold is also built in the US (as opposed to imported form outside the US), it is especially beneficial to the US and thats true regardless of what nameplate is on it.

As to the rest of your insinuation - go here:

 

BMW (11%). Those German's sure are loyal to German suppliers, heh.

It's not suprising that domestic manufacturers use more domestic parts content and contribute more to the GNP. They should; they are domestic companies. I also believe that Toyota has done good things for the United States.

1) They've created a lot of jobs.
2) They've helped US Suppliers and I'd bet money on the farm that Toyota doesn't use the "Walmart" tactics like GM, etc... do to US Suppliers so they probably make more money/part then working with GM even though it's less total business.
3) They really have woken up the domestic manufacturers to quality and good product. GM/Ford once had a huge monopolies in the market and instead of innovative and cutting edge products - they settled for sub-par and higher profits. Competition is a good thing.

Although, I do agree that we need to do something about the overseas labor and also the fact China, etc... should have to follow the same EPA regs if they want to sell product here.

I love GM, and I hope Toyota doesn't take the #1 spot. But to say Toyota is killing the American economy I don't think holds much water. IMHO

I'm more concerned about the lack of any electronics producers here in the United States then I am Toyota. I'd love to see an America made TV/DVD/Whatever again.

 

That's sort of what I thought...I suggest taking these with a large grain of salt.

 

The "parts content" figures are probably some of the more questionable of the bunch...I suspect if we actually knew how they were compiled we would see a different picture than the one being painted.

The “average” domestic (US) part content of a Toyota my indeed be around “41%” when you take into account all Toyota nameplate vehicles sold in the US including those made outside the US and imported here. One would expect a “Toyota” made in Japan to have very little US Domestic Parts in the vehicle...I don't think that's going to come as a shock to anyone.

However, if you look at a Toyota built in the US; the US domestic parts content of that vehicle will be at least comparable to any GM or Ford or Chrysler vehicle.