Automotive News / Industry / Future Vehicle Discussion Automotive news and discussion about upcoming vehicles

Toyota must be stopped...

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Dec 11, 2006 | 08:24 AM
  #136  
graham's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,887
From: northeast Miss.
Originally Posted by ProudPony
You funny centric-son! Berrrry funny!

I needed a giggle today... rough day.
(Good news is, I get to turn in the Peugeot, and go home tomorrow - 5 days early... whoopie!!!)

Not trying to throw gas on a fire, but (seriously), does anyone doubt that the reason we are seeing so much manufacturing (cars, clothes, shoes, electronics, and everything else) go offshore is because we have fed this silent tiger for the last 30-40 years with a clean conscience and an "it doesn't matter where the money goes" attitude? Would we be in the economic shape we are in (refering to the trade deficits we have with EVERYONE we trade with) if we had been a little more reserved about buying imported crap, and how we trade with our partners?
I feel like we have given away the farm, and never even saw it go...

You mean your trying to tell me that an American would compromise long-term consequences for a short term "live for the moment" habbit???

Old Dec 11, 2006 | 08:30 AM
  #137  
ProudPony's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally Posted by arjainz
Have you actually been to China? You guys seem to believe every internet crap out there. You guys oughta travel more and see how different the world is from your sheltered lives.
I think I've flown just over 120,000 miles THIS YEAR ALONE.
Been out of the country over 4 months this year alone.
Circumnavigated the globe in fact. Asia, Europe, Canada, Mexico, and all over the US.
I've been travelling like this since 1996.

So I call your bluff... I've "lived" in mainland China for over 3 months this year alone. About 2 hours outside of Shanghai in a city called KunShan. Joined a gym in the city, know people who own clubs, restaurants, stores, shops, etc. I eat with the common people... plant labor, lay persons, supervisors, etc. I ride the bus and train around town. I shop with them in their markets and stores. Not fluent, but I am getting pretty good with Mandarin Chinese. I will be going back again in January for design review meeting on our next plant we are building there next year, and will be staying there again in late 2007 and early 2008 like I did this past year.

I also got to spend a few weeks in Taiwan - both in Taipei(capital city), Chia-Yi, and Kaohsiung. This gives me a very unusual perspective on the rif that exists between Taiwan and mainalnd China because I've seen both sides.

I've been to Hong-Kong, Tokyo, and afew other cities throughout Asia Major in the last 12 months to boot.

I love the people. As individuals, they are extremely nice, hospitable, and friendly. BUT - the people don't run their government. And the people I chose to be around are not the ones doing the worst things - otherwise I would not hang out with them... duh.

In a population of 1.5-billion people as China has, you will have the good and the bad. Overall, I wish the good folks peace and prosperity, but I am NOT willing to sacrifice MY PEACE and MY PROSPERITY for the overall benefit of THEIR GOVERNMENT and people as a whole.

So what's your experience as a world traveller and what makes you the authority to speak on behalf of their cultures and lives?

Last edited by ProudPony; Dec 11, 2006 at 08:53 AM.
Old Dec 11, 2006 | 08:52 AM
  #138  
ProudPony's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally Posted by graham
You mean your trying to tell me that an American would compromise long-term consequences for a short term "live for the moment" habbit???

Well, since you put it that way...





YES, that is exactly what I mean.
Old Dec 11, 2006 | 09:00 AM
  #139  
graham's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,887
From: northeast Miss.
lol

We are so self absorbed sometimes, its every wonder that our own spit doesnt dry things up.
Old Dec 11, 2006 | 06:45 PM
  #140  
arjainz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
Originally Posted by ProudPony

So what's your experience as a world traveller and what makes you the authority to speak on behalf of their cultures and lives?
In Asia, I've been to China, Tokyo, Singapore, Thailand and I'm currently based in Manila. I also dont like the Chinese govt, most countries' people dont like their govt. But to actually make a sweeping statement like "China is the enemy and theyre out to kill us all", like what some here have posted is kinda out of line and paranoid. This is exactly the kind of thing w/c brings countries into war. Remember the "I will bury you" statement by Kruschev? Good thing cooler heads prevailed. Im just saying our cultures are very different and people should be open minded about this. Just because they do stuff w/c we aren't used to doesnt mean they're bad. They're just different. Besides, we arent exactly squeaky clean.

Since you're well travelled, did u actually see someone or even heard about someone eating aborted babies there like what suaveat69 was saying?
Old Dec 11, 2006 | 08:28 PM
  #141  
Robert_Nashville's Avatar
Banned
 
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
Arjainz,

Only a person who refuses to see or has a complete lack of knowledge/understanding of history could look at where China is spending its money and the types of weapons they have and are developing and not see that China is a true enemy.

Their militarization and weapons development exceed any (even irrational) need for their defense; their only need for such a build up is to use it in an eventual expansion…which shouldn’t be a surprise; history has shown that communism either must eventually expand to survive or it will collapse in upon itself.

As is usually the case, the problem is not the common people or simple differences in culture; the problem is a government that believes the state is everything and sees the freedoms protected by democracy as the enemy to that state.

I suspect that you and Chamberlain would have gotten along fine…I just hope the U.S. has a better (and smarter) man than Neville in office when China decides to take Taiwan.

Last edited by Robert_Nashville; Dec 12, 2006 at 06:06 AM.
Old Dec 11, 2006 | 11:12 PM
  #142  
Suaveat69's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 167
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted by arjainz
Communism, same with fascism killed lots of people. So did American bombs in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. Killing is killing no matter what side you're on.

Aborted babies huh? Have you actually been to China? You guys seem to believe every internet crap out there. You guys oughta travel more and see how different the world is from your sheltered lives.
There is something seriously wrong with your cognition fuctions. First off killing the innocent when not at war is different then killing in a time of war. Remmebr Pearl Harbor? That was killing the innocent. THe bombing of Japan was not killing for killing sake but in an act of retaliation of war. A big Friggin difference between killing and killing in war. If you do not understand that...well you obviously don't.

Ya aborted babies einstein. IT was all over the net and in magazines. Then a strange thing happened, the LIBERAL media picked it up. That is right one of the big three, CBS< NBC< ABC ran a friggin stories complete with pictures of the aborted babaies in a glass jar at the stores and interviewed people about it. SO I don't know where in the **** your no nothing *** comes off about this being an internet hoax. You are friggin CLUELESS.

You need to go back to your liberal utopia and let the adults run the world. Because you really have no idea of what you are talking about.
Old Dec 11, 2006 | 11:14 PM
  #143  
Suaveat69's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 167
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted by arjainz
In Asia, I've been to China, Tokyo, Singapore, Thailand and I'm currently based in Manila. I also dont like the Chinese govt, most countries' people dont like their govt. But to actually make a sweeping statement like "China is the enemy and theyre out to kill us all", like what some here have posted is kinda out of line and paranoid. This is exactly the kind of thing w/c brings countries into war. Remember the "I will bury you" statement by Kruschev? Good thing cooler heads prevailed. Im just saying our cultures are very different and people should be open minded about this. Just because they do stuff w/c we aren't used to doesnt mean they're bad. They're just different. Besides, we arent exactly squeaky clean.

Since you're well travelled, did u actually see someone or even heard about someone eating aborted babies there like what suaveat69 was saying?
Ever hear of our W 88 technology that China has that they bought from Klinton when he was president? ASk yourself why if they what to run up and give us a big sloppy kiss with open arms , why they would need this technology?
Nobody ever said they are bad becasue the are a different culture. COMMUNISM is BAD.
Old Dec 12, 2006 | 01:02 AM
  #144  
arjainz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
Originally Posted by Suaveat69
There is something seriously wrong with your cognition fuctions. First off killing the innocent when not at war is different then killing in a time of war. Remmebr Pearl Harbor? That was killing the innocent. THe bombing of Japan was not killing for killing sake but in an act of retaliation of war. A big Friggin difference between killing and killing in war. If you do not understand that...well you obviously don't.

Ya aborted babies einstein. IT was all over the net and in magazines. Then a strange thing happened, the LIBERAL media picked it up. That is right one of the big three, CBS< NBC< ABC ran a friggin stories complete with pictures of the aborted babaies in a glass jar at the stores and interviewed people about it. SO I don't know where in the **** your no nothing *** comes off about this being an internet hoax. You are friggin CLUELESS.

You need to go back to your liberal utopia and let the adults run the world. Because you really have no idea of what you are talking about.

Cant we have a proper discussion without having to call names?
I guess you also believe the da vinci code huh? Why are some people in here so cynical when they see a pic of a new car (probably photoshop) but believe right away when it comes to other stuff on the internet?

To Robert:
I understand your point. We're just seeing different sides of the coin. And, like the global warming issue, only time will tell which side is right. I guess Im just too much of a pacifist and would like to believe in the good in people first than the bad. Maybe we're just so used to being the bully and having our way that now there's a new bully in town, we start to cry foul.
Old Dec 12, 2006 | 06:06 AM
  #145  
ProudPony's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally Posted by arjainz
In Asia, I've been to China, Tokyo, Singapore, Thailand and I'm currently based in Manila. I also dont like the Chinese govt, most countries' people dont like their govt. But to actually make a sweeping statement like "China is the enemy and theyre out to kill us all", like what some here have posted is kinda out of line and paranoid. This is exactly the kind of thing w/c brings countries into war. Remember the "I will bury you" statement by Kruschev? Good thing cooler heads prevailed. Im just saying our cultures are very different and people should be open minded about this. Just because they do stuff w/c we aren't used to doesnt mean they're bad. They're just different. Besides, we arent exactly squeaky clean.

Since you're well travelled, did u actually see someone or even heard about someone eating aborted babies there like what suaveat69 was saying?
As I said in my post above - I actually love the people, and they have been HUGELY hospitable to me. I stay in touch with many of them from here in the US via text messages and Skype. They are genuinely nice people.

BUT there are just as many genuinely nice people here in the USA too. People who will actually go so far as to sacrifice their own life, making widows and 1-parent kids in the process, to defend people they have never even met. 'Nam and Korea pop to mind instantly. I have many friends from Nam that live in and around me here in North Carolina (Greensboro has the largest population of Montanard in the USA).
I am totally capable of seeing the beauty in people... it's the corrupt one or two that end up ruling the communist government that we have problems with, and we must not take our eyes off of.

I am 100% convinced that Chinese people can not take control of their government and run it the way they want - remember the student protests and the massacre in Tienanmen Square back in June of 1989? All those people wanted was freedom of speech and the press... yet they were assaulted by their own government and slaughtered. The same kind of behavior is still going on today of land condemnation and attempts at free journalism - they are still killing their citizenship.

In good conscience, I can not defend their COUNTRY'S (i.e. government's) behavior, nor can I declassify them as being a threat to my nation.
This is but one reason why I am so cautious about buying goods from countries that don't prescribe to the same ethical and humanitarian doctrines that I do, and it does not matter to me (personally) if the company makes the goods elsewhere and ships them here, makes parts there and assembles them here, or makes the parts and assembles them here... if the company is based in another country, they are only partially (at best) liable and accountable under the jurisdiction of the US laws and courts.

You're on your own with the baby thing...
Old Dec 12, 2006 | 06:21 AM
  #146  
ProudPony's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally Posted by Robert_Nashville
Arjainz,

Only a person who refuses to see or has a complete lack of knowledge/understanding of history could look at where China is spending its money and the types of weapons they have and are developing and not see that China is a true enemy.

Their militarization and weapons development exceed any (even irrational) need for their defense; their only need for such a build up is to use it in an eventual expansion…which shouldn’t be a surprise; history has shown that communism either must eventually expand to survive or it will collapse in upon itself.

As is usually the case, the problem is not the common people or simple differences in culture; the problem is a government that believes the state is everything and sees the freedoms protected by democracy as the enemy to that state.

I suspect that you and Chamberlain would have gotten along fine…I just hope the U.S. has a better (and smarter) man than Neville in office when China decides to take Taiwan.
Dammit... we agree again!

What I can add to that is that I have the benefit of seeing China's propaganda from the inside as well as outside. They are actively investing and promoting to their people that China is #1 in the world in everything they do. I met people there that believe 100% that China is "better" than the USA or UK in everything from medicine to technology and of course - manufacturing. We are bringing our manufacturing to China because China "makes everything in the world better than anyone else". I SWEAR IT.
The government, through their control of the media, has brainwashed their populous into believing this.

Current Chinese government is no better than Hitler was in the 1930's when it comes to their desire to be the superpower of the world, and how the are going to get there. The biggest difference is that they are not engaging in genocide or physical battles of war to do it... they are using pencils, paper, and the "sacrifice" of millions of laborers and their own environmental health to gain the economic upper hand. Once they rule the worlds manufacturing capability, they will have all the bargaining chips they need. As an added bonus, they are making GOBS of money from trade deficits while they are doing it to boot.

I do very much consider China to be a real threat to our way of life.
It's hard to conceive that any country would actually try to mount a land attack against us in this day and age, but when they get desperate enough for food and natural resources that we have, and we are so broke as a nation that we can't afford the military equipment to defend ourselves... well, crazier things have happened throughout history.
People of the day thought Rome would never fall either...
Old Dec 12, 2006 | 09:59 AM
  #147  
Robert_Nashville's Avatar
Banned
 
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
Well, Proud, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I fear the day is coming, in the not all that distant future, when China’s various Ambassadors will make personal visits to the White House and a few other world leaders to tell them that China will be taking back their province of Taiwan and then “suggest” that said world leaders can make all the “press release” statements they want but if they want to keep China’s goods coming, they had better do nothing more than make noise.

This will come at a point when virtually everything the rest of world needs for modern life is made in China and to disrupt that flow of goods would cause such an upheaval, no country will dare to threaten, much less take, military action against them; especially to save just one small, insignificant country.

The U.S. will renege on it’s treaty with Taiwan and China will then take Taiwan with barely a whisper from the rest of the world and we’ll see a repeat of what Hitler did with Europe until we have no choice but to fight. The problem is, even to combined military of the west will hardly be an impediment to a 200-300 million man army of China and the only choice will be to take things nuclear or surrender.
Old Dec 12, 2006 | 10:07 AM
  #148  
jg95z28's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
TIME OUT: Did someone say history?

Subject: World History - As it Really Happened

Humans originally existed as members of small bands of nomadic hunters/gatherers. They lived on deer in the mountains during the summer and would go to the coast and live on fish and lobster in the winter.

The two most important events in all of history were the invention of beer and the invention of the wheel. The wheel was invented to get man to the beer. These were the foundation of modern civilization and together were the catalyst for the splitting of humanity into two distinct subgroups:

1. Liberals; and
2. Conservatives.

Once beer was discovered, it required grain and that was the beginning of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle nor aluminum can were invented yet, so while our early humans were sitting around waiting for them to be invented, they just stayed close to the brewery. That's how villages were formed.

Some men spent their days tracking and killing animals to B-B-Q at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of what is known as the Conservative movement.

Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting learned to live off the conservatives by showing up for the nightly B-B-Q's and doing the sewing, fetching, and hair dressing. This was the beginning of the Liberal movement.

Some of these liberal men eventually evolved into women. The rest became known as girliemen.

Some noteworthy liberal achievements include the domestication of cats, the invention of group therapy, group hugs, and the concept of Democratic voting to decide how to divide the meat and beer that conservatives provided.

Over the years conservatives came to be symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth, the elephant. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass.

Modern liberals like imported beer (with lime added), but most prefer white wine or imported bottled water. They eat raw fish but like their beef well done. Sushi, tofu, and French food are standard liberal fare.

Another interesting evolutionary side note: most of their women have higher testosterone levels than their men. Most social workers, personal injury attorneys, journalists, dreamers in Hollywood and group therapists are liberals. Liberals invented the designated hitter rule because it wasn't fair to make the pitcher also bat.

Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat and! still provide for their women. Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumberjacks, construction workers, firemen, medical doctors, police officers, corporate executives, athletes, Marines, and generally anyone who works productively. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives who want to work for a living.

Liberals produce little or nothing. They like to govern the producers and decide what to do with the production. Liberals believe Europeans are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals remained in Europe when conservatives were coming to America. They crept in after the Wild West was tamed and created a business of trying to get more for nothing.

Here ends today's lesson in world history: It should be noted that a Liberal may have a momentary urge to angrily respond to the above before forwarding it. A Conservative will simply laugh and be so convinced of the absolute truth of this history that it will be forwarded immediately to other true believers and to more liberals just to p**s them off.
Now there is a point to this:

1. I consider myself a liberal (I'm registered Democrat)
2. I support environmental issues. (Including alternative fuels.)
3. I voted for George W. Bush. (But I also voted for Clinton, so go figure.)
4. I think this quote is freakin' hilarious.

Conclusions? Only the narrowminded have one view of history. Intelligent people can aquire knowledge and then make their own educated conclusions.

Now back to your regularly scheduled political rant.
Old Dec 12, 2006 | 10:34 AM
  #149  
graham's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,887
From: northeast Miss.
A person can also take both views of an event in hostory and pick and choose what they "want to believe" to support their argument or odd way of looking at things.

SEems fundamentally wrong to me..

Its like saying "Well, I wasnt there but i'm gonna believe what Bob said over Steve cause I think Steve could be wrong.." even though you know neither Bob nor Steve.
Old Dec 12, 2006 | 11:06 AM
  #150  
Chrome383Z's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,043
From: Shelbyville, IN
Originally Posted by Robert_Nashville
The problem is, even to combined military of the west will hardly be an impediment to a 200-300 million man army of China and the only choice will be to take things nuclear or surrender.
That truely would be a scary day that's for sure. And to keep things from going Nuclear (which both sides would probably destroy the whole planet) it would take truely the whole "world" to fight that army.

USA, Canda, EU, and possibly even Russia. (if they'd fight on our side).

I really hope a WWIII doesn't ever happen. Because I really believe, that would be the end of civilization as wel know it.



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:51 PM.