Dude you are living in fantasyland! Go reade the interviews or go read the book by the COl. who defected from china in 2002. Go see what he has to say and tell him that he is WRONG.

The world biggest sponsor of terroism and they just want to love us to death!

The reason they hate us is our REPUBIC from of governemnt and freedoms. We give more money in aide to the world than anyone but they still hate us? Go figure.

 

umm yea I thought that...I AGREED WITH YOU...duhhh..my god he still argues even when yo uagree with him???? I dont get it??

No S#!T China is the biggest threat in the world thats flying way below the radar..
Was I comparing them no..I said again if Japan does not do it economically before China starts WW3..hmm war and selling cars. yup Icompared them all right.. im going to bed

 

Here's a good conspiracy theory...3 letters...CIA. Lets face it. The US would've never been #1 if it werent for World War 2. And to stay in #1, there always has to be conflict. But its just a conspiracy theory...

Seriously, Im sure that book sold a lot and that Col. is now quite rich. We are a society ruled by fear and pessimism...sad. Why cant we just all get along?

 

okay before I go to bed..
Lets put it this way the best I can put it and my facts might be way off but you get the idea..
..China is not a threat right now..more like Scary to think of what it can become in the next 5-10 years.
Manpower-wise they have the largest army. They could on a conventional war roll right through to England with no problem just by sheer number. They are becoming large armourment wise and up to date also in weapons too. That is the scary part. Who do you think is supplying them the info. Well when the USSR fell alot of stuff went missing..for a price.. They are becoming more industrialized. basically like us 200 years ago just picture it X100 just for the size of the country. There are new megacities the size of New York being developed every 2 years growing in China. Those cities are becoming industrial factories at an alarming rate..factories that can turn out anything and everything at a drop of the hat. Kinda like what we did during WW1 and WW2 we grew exponentially at an alarming rate. China is growing ten times faster every day. The thing is we had good leaders that back then had an enemy to keep us in check. the Soviets..China?? Whos watching them to keep them in check? by the time the world realizes that they now have a bigger superpower than the U.S., lets just say I hope some common sense is in thier leadership..cus if not were all in for a world of hurt.
Like I said im half asleep and just trying to remeber the relevant info..if someone wants to point out the facts, like the Chinese goverment wanting all foreign manufacturers to disclose the patents, blueprints or whatever of anything you are making there. Why? so they can duplicate it and by thier law its legal..say a component that might be used for tracking planes?? Well how bout turning it into something that can track not just comercial but also military..something more advanced than they have now?? Its very sneeky what they are doing..and like I said if not woken up soon will have a frankenstein monster on their hands..is it a good moster or a bad monster???

alright NOW I am sleeping in the chair..good night..

 

You need to read this.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...SS01/612020354

 

Proud,

I appreciate the comments you’ve posted.

CONTRIBUTION TO THE U.S. ECONOMY by INTERNATIONAL NAMEPLATES
I don’t believe I’ve taken the position that support of foreign car companies is "better" for the US economy than a domestic one…what I have maintained and do maintain is that buying a vehicle produced in the U.S., on a per unit basis, has approximately the same benefit to the U.S. economy regardless of what nameplate is on the vehicle. Likewise, buying a vehicle produced outside of the U.S., regardless of what nameplate is on it, also has about the same impact on the U.S. economy as well.

Is the impact 100% equal in every case? No - of course it isn’t…I would say that it’s not even 100% equal between various models within any one nameplate. Where I most part company is with those who would dismiss out of hand, the contribution to the U.S. economy by any automaker who actually builds a car on U.S. soil using U.S. workers as if, because they aren’t one of the “Big 3” or because they aren’t as “big” as GM, their contribution to the economy doesn’t (or shouldn’t) count at all.

WHAT IS THAT CONTRIBUTION?
Here is some information that might be useful from the American International Automobile Dealers association (now, before anyone starts claiming foul, here, I would usually prefer to offer data from a more neutral source but I suspect that those who don’t want to accept these figures probably wouldn’t accept them no matter what the source was. That said, I don’t feel like spending a great deal of time gathering more independent sources. Also, I would say that the AIADA is certainly no more biased than Scott S., GM Insider News and The Level Field Institute, all of which have already been cited in this thread. That said, here goes…

OXY-MORONS
If you really want to discuss an oxy-moron may I suggest that this is one that is worthy of discussion…

If you put politics and agendas aside, it would make logical sense to most people to refer to any vehicle produced in the U.S. as a “domestic” vehicle and any vehicle produced outside of the U.S. as an “import” or “non-domestic” vehicle yet in the United States, the term “domestic vehicle” seems to be reserved for only those vehicles carrying the nameplate of one of Detroit’s former “Big Three” regardless of where the vehicle is actually produced.

The illogic of this can be seen perhaps most clearly in that a GM nameplate vehicle made in Mexico is called a “domestic” yet a Mercedes-Benz manufactured in the U.S is called an import – this is especially curious as Mercedes-Benz, Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep are all wholly owned by the German company DiamlerChrysler yet Mercedes-Benz vehicles are considered “imports” while Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep are considered “domestic”. Does that really make sense to anyone other than those who have an axe to grind?

For those who want to hang their opinion on the “where the profit goes” argument I can’t help but ask, where do you think the “profit goes” when you buy a Dodge pick-up or a Chrysler 300C? If “where the profit goes” is the only “test” of whether a company is an “American” company, as it appears to be in the minds of many on this board (at least those who have commented on these issues in the past), then don’t you have to consider Dodge, Chrysler and Jeep to be “imports’ now if only for the sake of consistency?

GM, FORD, & TOYOTA and their “AMERICAN” WORKERS
I’m not sure I buy into the notion that “hundreds of thousands” of workers are loosing their jobs (granted, a lot of jobs are being lost at GM and Ford and related suppliers but I question if the number is that high). I also do not see evidence that anyone is “heaping praise” on transplant automakers. That said, transplants who build plants in the U.S. do employ a lot of Americans and they do add significantly to the U.S. economy – some (I don’t mean you) seem intent on denying that, ignoring it or at least downplaying that which simply isn’t accurate..

I don’t like to see anyone loose work but competition (foreign or otherwise) is part of the foundation of capitalism and is a primary mechanism by which business and industry improves itself and that has always been true.

I see competition as a good thing…a necessary thing. Were it not for competition, Detroit would still be building crap cars that get 10MPG, costs more than they do today and cost more in maintenance to keep them on the road. I thank God for competition.

Would a displaced GM or Ford worker feel “better” if his job was lost because it was a wholly-owned U.S. born and bread company that took market share form GM/Ford instead of a Toyota or Nissan or Honda? Some on this forum might feel better but I doubt the person out of work would.

As to the level of salary, I won’t argue that Toyota or Nissan or Honda is paying less overall for their workforce but I take exception to the ˝ to Ľ claim - I’d like to see some verification of that.

Whatever the other nameplates are paying their workers I’m sure it is less than GM and Ford and DCX pays but what does that really mean? Is it really unfair or underhanded if Honda builds a new, modern plant and can get workers for $20/hr plus benefits while GM and Ford keep paying $35 plus benefits? Is it unfair or underhanded if Honda can build a new assembly plant and can produce the same number of vehicles as an aging GM plant but do so with 60% or 50% of the workforce GM has in its old plant? Is it unfair or underhanded if Toyota has a workforce where there are two people working for every one retiree (and GM has two or three retirees for every current worker)?

I would suggest that GM and Ford probably haven’t needed the numbers of employees on their payrolls for many years, even apart from “competition”…aging plants, aging production methods and an aging manufacturing model and their union contracts have kept employment numbers and costs higher than was actually needed (can anyone say “job bank”). What are the options then; should the American public be forced to subsidize, through higher prices for cars, the employees and their salaries that are simply not justified by the market today?

My point is that a lot of Detroit’s problems are almost entirely of their own making…as I said in an earlier post, competition from automakers from Asia and Europe may have hastened Detroit’s problems along more quickly but even without any competition, GM and Ford would still be facing many of the same problems they face today; it just would have taken longer.

DESPERATE FOR WORK?
I’m not sure why you feel that the only workers Toyota or Nissan or Honda is employing are “desperate for work”…I’d say anyone who didn’t have a job would be desperate for work whether it was GM who decided to employ him or Toyota.

I wonder if you feel the people of Spring Hill, Tennessee were “desperate for work” when GM decided to build the Saturn plant there? Are people only desperate for work when a new plant is built by a Honda or Toyota but not so if it’s GM or Ford bringing a new plant to an area that has never had one before?

I also question your claim that Toyota uses a lot of “contract labor”…even if true what exactly does that prove? I’ve been in a lot of large companies over the past ten years or so and just about ALL of them are using a lot of contract workers (and I’ve been one of those contract workers and was glad to have the work).

Even if your assertion about Toyota is true, I don’t think it’s evidence of some malicious intent beyond what most companies are doing today. There are solid business reasons for using contract labor – individuals may not like or agree with those reasons but I would suggest that Toyota is no more or less “guilty” of this practice than most businesses today.

IS GM AN “AMERICAN” COMPANY
Without question, GM, Ford and DCX have a huge investment in the U.S. built over many, many, decades…they are huge companies with a long history in the U.S. even if you only include the U.S. portions of their business. However, all three are true multi-national companies in every sense of the word…while they may have gotten their start here, to call them “American” today is more a statement of faith than of fact….more a statement from an historical perspective than from a current one.

I’ve no real quarrel with those who want to buy “GM” products out of patriotic feelings or for most any other reason. I do, however, have a quarrel with those who would question the ethics or patriotism of those who make other choices especially when those doing the questioning base those questions on nothing but emotion or ignorance.

Regardless of what some may think, I feel no need to appease my conscience…my conscious is quite clear. Until someone else wants to start supporting me and paying my bills for me, I’ve more than earned the right to buy and drive whatever my financial situation allows; regardless of what nameplate is on it or where it was manufactured.

 

Robert-- Thanks for the rational and completely lucid post.

 

wow Robert either you just hit your head or you finally thought out what we been shouting at you for the longest time or these are your thoughts. IF that is you typing it...cus to tell you the truth it doesnt sound like you. Really and Im not just being a d!ck.
Like I stated long before and you can go back and look I stated I like the vehicles that import companies make, they make great vehicles.
I do not blame them, I know what they are doing like any business: WIN.
Like I said before I blame the goverment first: OUR goverment. If our govement treated foreign competition like Japan does. I think we would never have this coversation. But besides that the main issue in this is the trade practice is not level. I have watched on C-Span about it and heard congress senators mayors and so on saying they gotta fix it, but never do. Its one of those problems that is there but cannot fix it without really messing things up. So its not going to be fixed.That leads me to the big 2.5.

If you looked and I am almost 100% sure I only said Ford and GM. I said where does the profit go. Your right it goes to Germany for DCX..they are the parent company. Profit is what drives or sinks a company and I think that if anything every penny is fought for. Thats where it goes back to the argument that I had with you on buying a car from Nissan made here or a GM made here. I think and I might be wrong but aside from the "kickback" side note about mexico and Canada I think I was speaking for the cars made here in the U.S. vs. Import companies making cars here. if were talking percentages hell if the import sends 49% to U.S. responsibilities it has and GM sends 50% its still just a point but a point is a point. If that makes me feel better then thats my argument to buy a car built by a U.S. car company.

That leads me to the argument of does it make a diffrence. Sure it does by the way I look at it, for you it doesnt. Import companies are taking the advantages it has and running with it and thats where you and I disagree. Thats why I can say why is GM outsourcing and Toyota is building here? you pointed it out. Legacy cost and the idea that they should pay good amount for the workers. They cant so they send it out of the country why? another big problem the auto union..something Toyota does not have to deal with. Toyota gains more ground picking up the peices. To me thats bad..to you it might be nothing but again thats where we disagree. To put it in a picture terms I look at Ford and GM as a large Elephant and Toyota and the rest are like Tigers taking swipes at it. If it falls were in trouble.
My main thing is people that buy these products that think that is has no impact. Again another disagree of you and me. But more and more people are buying Toyotas why? to this day they think they are getting a better car than a Ford or GM. Is it true?? no. Are magazines ripping apart domestic cars still? Go pick up this months Automobile with the Alfa Romeo on the cover and flip through it. Tell me there is no bias? There is. So Robert. After reading all this and NOW listening to you and I really hope you wrote this. I have no argument with you but only over a few pennies and where loyalty lies. If you think helping Nissan is good for the country then I cant change your view. But if you hold what you just read as what you think then I can live with that, cus from what it looks like you thought this out and types what you really feel. I hope ...
I for one feel that we as a country shoudl support things that reside here in the U.S. if you feel that GM is a global company thats fine. I feel that if the corperation, the owners, the majority of the workers and sales reside in the U.S. then by comparison they are an American company. run by people that would defend this country if need be. Think about it the whole China debate that got thrown in here. Say it does go to a conventional war. And we have to do what was done in WW2 and the car companies had to start building for our war effort. You think Toyota would turn over thier factories? I know I am stretching here but thats a far out thought I had, what if it happened and it wasnt about business anymore. Who would pony up and be an American company and support its country? I find it hard to beleive Toyota would give the O.K.. But thats another whole argument.
Finally. Robert I see your views...again I am saying its small stuff we dissagree on. thats fine, support what you want but I think this has come full circle.
and for a final note: I gotta print out one more page now. We started work on that CEO's house Monday and gave him a printout of this whole topic minus the china debate. he was more than curious on your thoughts. I had him intruged to say the least.
So tommorow I'll hand him this final one of your thoughts. See what he says just for an outside view fro mthe top looking down.
And for the third time and last I think were done here, anyone that sees this will know its wrapped up in a nice package. I was surprised it was you but hey. Like I said if you beleive it then I am happy. We cannt sway your views on this matter and nor you can to us. Just the way we feel.

its almost 1230 AM and I gotta wake up at 5 Im tired and I know I mispelled alot, I apologize in advance..I am off to bed.

have a good night.

 

Just on one note it has been mentioned that the avg jobs are paying less. I don't see that. When I started college a typical ME degree was paying ~40k. Now it's up around 50k. I haven't seen a decline?

Now in manufacturing the UAW has inflated pay for these workers. We could start a whole debate about that (which usually get's nasty); but that aside - mfg jobs in the UAW pay alot more then manufacturing jobs in other "areas".

Also, this may be just me; but don't think for one second that ALL companies have noticed that DUAL INCOMES are practically the standard these days and therefore a "Large" income provider is not really needed to sustain a certain level of living.

Hell, the avg income in my town is 35k. If you have two people working at Walmart they can bring in at that.

I think Walmart is a great thing for America and the Economy.

 

Put down the crack pipe? We were #1 long before WW2. So we are number one becaue of Korea, Vietnam, Desert storm???

I know just dismiss him becasue you know nothing about him, I guess you are one of those 'don't confuse me with the fatcs" type? It is well document what he said and the intelligence he brought with him. So he wrote a book outlining what he said and you want to dismiss him?

We are a society rules by apathy, stupidity and liberalism. Communism killed over 100 million people in the 20th century. The chineses EAT aborted babies that they sell in the store. And you are saying that we are being ruled by fear?? Wake up.

I just seen a Kia or Hyndia, can't remmebr but the sticker on the window said that 4% of the parts are from the USA and 90% from Korea. For the life of me I can't see how anyone could argue that a vehicle with this amount of USA parts beneifts the economy as much as a GM with 74-82% of USA parts? I jsut don't see how!

 

Couldn't agree more!

 

ra·tion·al·ize [rash-uh-nl-ahyz, rash-nl-ahyz]

1. to ascribe (one's acts, opinions, etc.) to causes that superficially seem reasonable and valid but that actually are unrelated to the true, possibly unconscious and often less creditable or agreeable causes.

hidden agenda

n. An undisclosed plan, especially one with an ulterior motive.

troll

An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic) communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly controversial (compare flame bait), or the act of sending such a message. Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds.

 

You funny centric-son! Berrrry funny!

I needed a giggle today... rough day.
(Good news is, I get to turn in the Peugeot, and go home tomorrow - 5 days early... whoopie!!!)

Not trying to throw gas on a fire, but (seriously), does anyone doubt that the reason we are seeing so much manufacturing (cars, clothes, shoes, electronics, and everything else) go offshore is because we have fed this silent tiger for the last 30-40 years with a clean conscience and an "it doesn't matter where the money goes" attitude? Would we be in the economic shape we are in (refering to the trade deficits we have with EVERYONE we trade with) if we had been a little more reserved about buying imported crap, and how we trade with our partners?
I feel like we have given away the farm, and never even saw it go...

 

Absolutely. I don't care how cheap you make it, if people won't buy it for one reason or another it isn't going to make much business sense.

The people who rationalize their purchase of foreign-branded goods that are made here by saying "yeah but they make them here" just want to make me respond....ok....but what about 25 years ago when they weren't made here and you still bought them?

Heck, buy what you want, it's your right as an American....just be truthful to yourself when you rationalize your decision for buying something....

 

Communism, same with fascism killed lots of people. So did American bombs in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. Killing is killing no matter what side you're on.

Aborted babies huh? Have you actually been to China? You guys seem to believe every internet crap out there. You guys oughta travel more and see how different the world is from your sheltered lives.