It is possible to make vehicles LIGHTER and CHEAPER. We have better materials now, better construction techniques, and much better analysis capabilities. Consider the revolution in sportbikes over the past 10-15 years. A ~1993 GSXR-1100 weighed close to 500 lb. and cost close to $14,000. A new GSXR-1000 weighs close to 400 lb., and costs ~$11,000. Even without adjusting for inflation, new bikes are WAY cheaper and WAY lighter. Throw in the crash protection requirements (bikes don't have to have airbags, crumple zones, 5mph bumpers, etc) and modern cars SHOULD be capable of at least holding the line on weight. They haven't been (GM is actually better than most in this regard). Difference is that sportbike buyers DEMAND light weight and maximum track performance capabilities (though they seldom know what to DO with those capabilities!). Most car buyers apparently want to drive around in bank vaults (low low NVH). I want a 4-wheeled sportbike!

 

Without getting this thread too off topic, I certainly agree that two vehicles with almost 40 years between them are very difficult (if not impossible) to compare. In fact, that was what I was trying to get at. Just to clarify, I was not purposely trying to compare a '69 and '02 Camaro. I certanly agree that weight can't just be "added" on to a completely different car. There is definitely more to it than that. However, the idea that a vehicle today has no reason to weigh more than something that was produced 30 something years ago just didn't make sense to me.


-Mike

 

The scary part is, I have taken into account some of the lighter materials used on today's cars compared to those in '69....and the 4th Gen was still heavier.

 

May I suggest the Lotus Elise?

 

An Elise would be WONDERFUL!
In fact I don't *really* want the new Camaro to be a "4-wheel sportbike".
But I don't want it to be a luxury sedan, minus the luxury and 4-doors, either.

 

To verify ... I started with a 99 Z28 that scaled 3,350 stock when I bought it. With the following changes I got it all the way down to 3,100 lbs
- Tubular K-member
- Tubular upper & lower control arms
- Tubular LCA, PHB, Torque Arm
- delete AC, AIR, CC
- Headers, no cats
- remove carpet, headliner, rear sail panels & rear seat
- remove entire sound system, head unit, speakers and wiring
- remove air bags and lower dash trim
- remove power windows, locks and mirrors and all wiring
- stock seats (driver power) replaced with Sparco Evo's
- remove spare tire, jack and all the hatch area carpet/liners

Weight adders:
- STB, SFCs, Optima yellow top in the spare tire well with fat cables running to the starter.

If Chevy brings a well equipped V8 5th gen in under 3,500 lbs I will consider it a success.

 

I want a Camaro that:

weighs 100 lbs
has 2000hp
gets 200MPG
and costs $500


heres to dreaming.......................................... ........

 

just curious why you bought the damn thing? Sounds like you woulda saved alotta money without the power options...

 

How do you like yours? Brand? I've been thinking about snatching one up, but have heard several people that have had the aftermarket units crack on them.


-Mike

 

2008/2009 was never the plan. This was only from guesses by people on the internet. It was said that Chevy ".... is evaluating proposals to revive the classic performance-car nameplate in 2009-2010 on a new low-cost rear-wheel-drive platform", in 8/4/05.

5+5 is 10.

 

4 wheel motorcycle (nearly literally)
http://www.arielatom.com/04/frames.htm

Or get an Ultima GTR, or a Lotus...

Half the guys here have really no idea what's going on. Lazy engineers? Wow. That's just plain rude.

"You can make it cheaper by using less steel" - wouldnt be too sure of that one. Does the cost of design and manufacture outweigh the savings from less material?

Do some of you know how much all the silly wiring in a 4th gen weighs? JUST the wiring?

Do you know WHY GM cant put BMR style components on its cars from the factory?

Do you know how much weight the upgraded brakes and ABS systems weigh?

Think a 69 Camaro seat in any car crash will keep you even half as safe as one in a 2002?

Think a 69 will take a high speed, high damage crash and keep its occupants alive with the same probability?

Think a 69 Camaro is anywhere near as "safe" at high speeds with its lack of modern aerodynamics?

Your stupid desktop computer isnt rated for the shocks, heat/cool cycles on the road, it isnt rated for the dust contamination, it probably crashes all the freaking time as is, and it certainly cost you a lot to buy as well! Want to tack on that price to a new camaro? Stick your desktop in the backseat of a 4th gen and see if it will turn on every time you start the car, no matter what the temp you find it at, every freaking time, for even 3 years. Then hit a whole mess of big potholes... It will break. Sorry! Notice the operating temperatures on the manuals and data sheets for your components. They cant handle the possible -30 to 120+ degree range!!

A 5th gen fbody weighing 3400lb and under I too would consider an accomplishment. Cause for every bit of weight you take out over the years, more sensors, technology, wiring, and SAFETY EQUIPMENT get in.

If you want a Camaro to handle like a little compact rally car on rails, get one - but a Camaro isnt it. Accept it and move on. Get an Atom, or a GTR, or a Lotus. But if you realize Camaros have never been the "uber-handler" of Chevy's lineup, were always a little big and heavy, were always a "common man's" or "working man's" car, were always a little short on fit and finish... but a decent car at a decent price that performs great for what it is- then there might be a car for you.

"Lazy Engineers".... wow.... Some of you guys are about as ignorant as they come. Its also obvious that some of these same people have never worked in a real world environment with deadlines, restraints, budget problems, manpower shortages, and everything else that comes with actually working in the field.....

We're the minority, and GM needs to sell a lot more base suspension v6 automatic cars then it does top handling and performing models with a slick manual tranny and t-tops. And when the masses cry out for cheap and cheap and cheap (but still nice) - dont think you're so important that you'll get your way over those masses. GM would like to keep all the sales it can - but selling a few hundred more v6 models instead of a handful more 1LE Z28's is a stupid question. We come 2nd. Accept it.

 

Let me make something perfectly clear............

we DO care what you as a group have to say.

But....just looking at this thread will tell you that you as a group can't decide what the car should be. And when the next V8 RWD coupe comes to market, I can hear some of you gushing.....and some of you cursing. Got news for ya.....that's the way it is when you're talking about an automobile that inspires such passion. Some of you might not like it.......but don't start throwing accusations around unless you know the whole story.

I get extremely upset when I hear "lazy engineers" and "if they even care" and such. Do you really think I'd visit this site...and take the slams we take ...if WE DIDN'T CARE?????

(sorry.....just a lil hot under the collar today....)

You can be assured that there are people who really do care and put their all into products.....esp. when speaking of a car with such a rich heritage.

Mr. Chadwick.....you brought up some very good points....thank you!

 

Off-topic:

Red:

I just wanted to express a sincere thanks to GM for a prompt and thorough response to the Katrina disaster. Even in difficult times, they are the most willing to support and provide. Thank you.

On a side note, is it reasonable for me to hope for some cool RWD cars (besides Caddies and vettes) within a couple years (couple meaning '07 ) from GM? You don't have to answer

 

I guess 'we' enthusiasts are letting just off some steam on the forum... we're sick to death hearing about how Toyota are making squillions selling boring, mundane but dependable transport and yet GM are doing likewise... without the $ucce$$.

We're all rooting for GM, it's just that some people express themselves with more intent than others... that includes those who actually own a Camaro, and those who aspire to owning one.

 

Here we go again... Haven't you learned anything yet from that other thread?

Your ride is here: http://www.pontiac.com/solstice/index.jsp?brand=home