Some of these posts are going off the deep end, and are actually getting pretty bizzare.

Lets look at some facts:

1. Camaro currently does not exist on the market. It's deader than a doornail.
2. Mustang beat the pants off of the F-bodies.....combined!!!
3. GM is not a charity organization.
4. Bigger engines do squat in the marketplace.
5. The current Mustang is selling in amazing numbers.... with a live axle..... at it's current size.
6. Mustang at last count was outselling all sporty coupes combined by something like 70%.
7. It takes about 5 years to get a car from scratch to the showroom.
8. GM is going to find the cheapest way to produce a good product (if Kappa was cheaper than Sigma, don't you think GM wouldn't have used it?).



Now, some realities:

1. The only way Camaro will survive is to pull in new buyers.
2. Buyers don't care about live axles, GVW, and think Kappa and Sigma are fraternities.
3. Buyers want praticality in there coupes and don't want small cars! When they do, they want 4 cylinder FWD econocars.
4. Just like in the 1960s, the public's reaction to Mustang is dictating what anyone who wants to compete will create.
5. You can call the general public all the names you want because of this, but you matter less than they do in the grand scheme of things because they outnumber you something like 1000 to 1 of Camaro buyers, and you don't even want to know how we compare in the entire sporty coupe market.
6. IF GM were bringing out a Camaro in 2008, you aren't going to change anything now (it's too late), so there's no reason to slam what they may be working on.


Want to demand things? Be reay to accept these things:

Independent rear suspension:
*Heavier or more expensive car.
*Cost to be taken out elsewhere (fewer option choices, struts, quality of materials...)
*Axle hop
*Higher price for top engines (heavier duty driveshafts, differential, IRS components)

Kappa based Camaro:
*The death of a Camaro some people have spent years of time and effort to bring this far.
*Instead of seeing a Camaro in a reasonable time, starting over and not seeing one till 2009CY or later.
*GM not getting involved in the pony car market at all (are you ready to gamble on what management will be around in 2008 or 2009 when approval has to be given?).
*The press of Ford & Chrysler competing in a market that GM seems unable to (think it's bad now??).
*A 7+ year gap in Camaro production (what was a Camaro again?).


If you actually ARE a Camaro enthusiast, and ACTUALLY want Camaro to live and succeed, then you have to accept reality:
*An engine in a box won't cut it.
*Pushing Camaro's return back 5 years isn't going to do it any favors.
*Sending it's price upwards isn't going to make it competitive.
*Making it small isn't going to wash with the public the 5th gen needs to bring in.
*And finally, no matter how many polls we make here, we aren't even enough of a market to justify a change of stereo systems let alone taking Camaro away from it's roots and moving it in a direction contrary from sales numbers and market studies.



If you want to create a whole new Camaro direction, then please allow those of us who actually care about the name and want the car to survive and actually compete with the Mustang in sales and profit to GM (and therefore ensuring there will be future Camaros), to support the one some in GM are trying to get to market now first.

Or at the very very least, lets wait till we actually see what the Camaro custodians at GM have come up with before we slam a car we haven't seen yet.

Pretty please!

 

Not sure what you just said, but I have $200 dollars saved towards my 5th gen down payment.

 

It's called a rant.

 

Ok, but while I see what you are talking about, Ford is selling its Mustangs because they did listen to thier enthusiasts. We might not make up the majority of sales, but most enthusiasts are die-hard to a certain brand. I never see A Camaro towed behind and F350, or a Mustang behind a 3500 Silvy.
But thats not the point. The car must drive people to buy it, and make them semi-enthuisats.
On the other hand, I know that GM has the full power to make us happy with large V8's that offer power all over the spectrum. I know that they will give us a great car with what they have. I would like to see a more modern chassis, but if they can offer a great handling ride with a live axle and struts (which I have no doubt they can), then I will be more then happy to put my hard earned money twards a nice red Z28.
I guess its more along the lines of bragging rights and the like.
GM and the Camaroites inside GM know what the Camaro needs to be, and not some sort of 4 seater Vette.

 

AMEN to that. Completely agree.

 

I pull my TA behind a F250. Cuz I couldn't afford a duramax though.LOL

I understand what GuionM is saying....and I agree. They 'base' package needs to be able to sell lot hotcakes to support the financial needs for the hi-po versions for the real enthuesiests.

 

So only real enthusiasts will buy a hi-po version and anyone else is not a real enthusiast?


Back to topic


Great points Guy!

 

I really don't think that's what he's saying.

If we want Camaro to return... if we want the spirit of Camaro to survive... we're going to have to accept what will end up being GM's version of the 2006-7 Mustang. We need to stop bitching about what the Camaro is not, or never has been. If you want a Kappa sized IRS RWD coupe, go buy a flippin' BWM and leave Camaro alone. GM is going to come up with something to compete with Ford... something that's going to be evolutionary, not revolutionary.

 

you think the hordes of V6 Mustang drivers are Performance Enthuesiests?? HA

 

06-07 camaro. Do we really think we are going to see one that soon?

 

As long as what comes to the market is flexible, as in if someone wants to have the look, and a good car, they can buy the V6 model. For me, I won't be interested in anything less than a Z28, or SS. So, the Z28 or SS better be competitive with the highend pony car market and right there with the Mustang Cobra, or Challenger R/T(?). Quite frankly, I will be a lost sale forever (or atleast until I can aford a Vette) if they botch the Z28 or SS.

If GM can't make a performance version that I would be interested in, its their own fault. FWIW, they will have had the better part of a decade to getting this car to the market. More than Ford did with the Mustang, and a sub par product won't be acceptable to me.

I am afraid of the Camaro being the next Silverado SS. Eevn when released 5 years after the Lightning, it wasn't a sporty package, was weaker than the competition, and nothing I would be proud to own.

 

Define that for me Guy. What is small, but I guess more importantly what is not small.

Some more stuff to firm up the reality check:

Forget about Kappa.
Forget about a live axle.
Some things are set in stone as we speak, some are not.
January will reveal sort of a sneak peek tease and not a carbon copy.


And one question for everyone...
I gather from Guy's post the feeling that the Camaro needs to be an exact copy of the Mustang to have a chance of success. Is that true?

 

My opinion, FWIW, is that if GM choose to mimic the Mustang with Camaro, it wouldn't necessarily guarantee them success. I make reference to Chrysler's success with their Dodge Charger (OK, so it's not a 2-door)... both different type of vehicles that sell by the bucket load. Now if Chevy can discover the same formula that uniquely characterize Ford/DC's latest efforts... they'll be onto a winner.

I don't agree that Camaro should follow Mustang down the same road. Being late in the game, GM must offer something more, something a little different. Mustang is Mustang... and as I've stated before, I wouldn't change a thing on the car... excepting the engine.

 

A rhetorical question for you guys and others that want to see a "different" approach...
Just exactly how much can you change the Camaro before it's not a Camaro anymore?

While I certainly don't propose slapping a Camaro badge on a Mustang and calling it a day, I also don't think it is fair to the Camaro name to move it into a totally different class of car either. If that is the desired market - fine, go for it... but do it under a different name and let the Camaro badge RIP.

I posted before - Camaros, Mustangs, Chargers, Javelins, Cudas, and the like were ALL cars that borrowed technology and parts from other lines. The first Mustang was a reskinned Falcon for heaven's sake. These cars have NEVER been noted for setting new benchmarks for technology, fit/finish, ride quality, NVH levels, visibility, or anything else as far as I am aware. So why should they become exclusive now? Why put the top-line parts and technology into what has almost always been the economically sporty version of "BASIC TRANSPORTATION"?
Maybe, just maybe, the 200k people that plopped down $20k-something for a Mustang this last year did it because they like the looks, like the feel, and like the price. Not one single time have I heard anybody say anything about missing an IRS under their V6. In fact, everyone I've talked to from car shows, race tracks, and grocery store parking lots - they are all very happy with their cars.

I guess I'm saying that I'd rather see the Camaro come back true to it's roots and compete against Mustang and Charger, than see it come back and compete against BMWs, Infinitis, and Nissans. If GM wants to field such a car - that's great - really, I am all for it... but please call it something else like a Commodore, Commander, Commanche, Compadre, Corrado, Compote, Corridor, Comstock or something... but not Camaro.

The Thunderbird is a great example of a name that has lost identity...
When I say Thunderbird, do you think 1955 2-seater performance, do you think 1969 Landau with 429ci, do you think 1976 Brougham with a 302-2v, do you think 1980 Fox-body 'bird with 302 or V6, do you think 1987 Turbo Coupe with 5spd, do you think 1989 SouperCoupe with 5spd or 1989 Elan with a V6 auto, do you think 1995 T'bird LX with a 4.6L auto, do you think 2003 2-seater 3.9L convertible? This name has been used on so many platforms and in so many markets now, that "Thunderbird" is just a generic Ford name to most folks - sad for Ford, and not something I would like to see happen to a name with the history that Camaro has.

 

Did I say they are "Performance" enthusiasts? No

Can the V6 Mustang drivers be real enthusiasts?

Yes they can be, now get over it!

Be an exact copy? No

Use the same basic formula. Ponycar Formula if you will. Except Chevy must improve on it where it can.
> IRS is one area they are doing this.
> If Chevy offered a base V8, without a Z28 or SS attached, that would be another area.
> For comparable models, offer a better overall car for a equal or better price.
> Win the performance war in all models
> Better gas mileage

One thing Chevy should do is find out what Mustang buyer don't like about their car; what Camaro owners don't like about their car; and what the general buying public believes is wrong with the Mustang and ponycars in general, and fix those issues. Notice I didn't say they should focus on what the enthusiast crowd wants...