Let me put it like this. With this new line-up, shorn of any rear drive V-8 performance cars (if that is indeed the case) Pontiac is already dead to me, you get that ?

 

Sounds like GM is willing to take that chance, James.

 

Even with the varying ideas that have been floated about Poncho, I am holding out hope that they will find new life. If that is not the original thoughts (of a year or so ago) so be it. Poncho has a strong following and heritage that I hope GM uses to their advantage.

It would only be logical that the GTO would move forward on a Zeta (type) platform, weather it is produced in Oz or here. As Guy pointed out, the hard work is done (basic chassis development). I really hope the VE make it here with MORE punch and class- it WILL be my next car if that is the case.

The future for Pontiac looks good, or atleast better than it did two years ago. The basic direction is the $64k dollar question!

As an aside (and forgive my ignorance), does the VE/Zeta/Zeta II (NA) platform allow for AWD? As I understand, EPII does allowing for an AWD next-gen Caddy CTS, but what about the Zeta variants? An AWD Bonneville (no, I wont call it a G8 ) with a V8 would be ideal! Not sure if it is feasible though....

Thanks in advance....

 

Yes, but not on the Camaro though.

 

Why does someone have to be working on it?

All we would be talking is slapping a design language on a platform that is already being developed. Much of the design language was done back in 05...though it would likely be tweaked.

 

And what exactly do you think happened to all that work that was ready for approval January 2005??? Ya think GM hit "delete" and erased everything??

As for GM studios being "filled" with all sorts of Camaro designs, truth is the Camaro that appeared in the illistration in my last Camaro article was based on what the Camaro was going to be. There was no progressing work on it. When the order came to "evolve" the design, and competition and then the final design was chosen, it covered a span of 6-8 months.

GTO is in the same place where Camaro was when we did that picture. It's a design language, plans, reports, and everything that's needed to move things forward. Again, like Camaro, if the word is given to evolve the design, it's safe to say it would take the same amount of time as Camaro. If word was given to build it, unlike Camaro, it won't need new engineering to do since the structure will already be out.

In short, it would take alot less time, meaning it will need alot less lead time to get to the assembly line.

Again, you seem to be saying GM sent everything regarding GTO to the shreader. If GTO was 2-2 1/2 years from assembly line in January 2005, 1 year later it's suddenly 4-5 years away?

Only reason I've given up on 2008 is because Holden will be bringing out the Ute & Wagon that year. Whether Holden builds it or it's made here in the US, neither place is going to be ready before 2009. And if the GTO is made here, it won't be till after Camaro comes on line and no sooner than Impala starts production. A factory timing issue.

I'd hold off on that obituary for a year or so.

Hardly.

Nothing's changed.

No Camaro based Firebird. Best hope for Firebird is a different chassis.

GTO is a separate proposition

Well step back, take a deep breath, look at what's posted, and think what makes the most sense to you. GM isn't run by a bunch of baffoons on a learning curve. Wagoner has already proven he's no fool. Lutz is so rich & so old already, he's certainly not in his job for the money or retirement cash. Welburn's been drawing cars since he was a prepubercent. GM went on a buying spree a few years ago getting talent from everyone else.

Now... that haven been said,

....do you think there's any doubt that when Grand Prix production ends in about a year and a half, there's going to be a car to replace it????

....do you think Pontiac is going to go 5 years or more without a RWD coupe???

....do you think after seeing what happened to Saturn as it was left stale, and the costs and headaches of killing Oldsmobile, do you actually think a General Motors that's weaker today, with a CEO that's been gambling his career the past year is going to take the same exact routes???

.... have you ever seen in automotive history a company that's lost as much money as GM has whose Board of Directors didn't give the CEO a pink slip unless there was a very solid plan in place to fix things???

You really don't have to think very hard to figure out the answer to all these questions.

So when questions come up that perhaps the Commodore isn't coming to replace a Grand Prix (despite there being no other car available), or that zeta based GTO data and design has a self-destruct or self-delete date where if no one actively works on it, or that Pontiac is simply going to flounder until a new wonder chassis comes on line at the turn of the decade, you're just going to have to sit back & do your own thinking here.

Keep in mind that creating a new car takes many years, budgets fund programs over multiple years.

Sort of like Fred Thompson's character in the "Hunt For Red October" as the aircraft carrier captain to Jack Ryan:

"Son.... the ruskies don't take a s*it without a plan"

GM is the same way.... especially now.

 

Truth is, that the picture that Chris drew was from input from people who had NEVER actually seen what GM Design was working on. I know, since I was one of the people giving him input. And after 284 was cancelled, Design overtly went after much stronger Camaro design influences as seen on the current concept.

If GTO is in the same place now as where the Camaro was then, it would be logical to assume that someone, somewhere is working on one. That somewhere in a design studio, designers are tweaking it, that engineers somewhere are engineering it, that planners somewhere are planning it, that factory workers are preparing for it, that venders are bidding out GTO emblems.

Truth is, none of that is happening, and Pontiac is taking a whole new direction.

 

The final GTO "design language" was completed by Fall of 2004. But that coupe platform was never fully developed. So unless a speculative GTO were a rebadged Camaro, quite abit of engineering work would still be involved.


No, but it was the starting point for the Camaro. Again, let me point out that what was to be the GTO's structure was never completed, all work done was virtual. Also, right before it was cancelled, the GTO (and "Chevy Coupe"), weren't two years away - they were pushed back to 2010.

 

I'm not going to get into where Chris's design information came from, but I will say I'm more than fairly certain the information was from people who saw it.

Much like if a description is given to Chris, he is very good at nailing it in his renderings. It's just what he does.

Also, Charlie I'd have to say again that you are right regarding the GTO at this time. No engineering work, etc. But...that does not mean there is not something GTO for the designers/engineers to see, (or others for that matter) in the design center.

That's why I've said that 2010 is possibe, but 211 or 2012 is more likely, if at al.

 

Dunno...

While I definetly think Pontiac needs a car like the IS or G35 which is what you're more or less describing... i dont see how a bunch of four cylinders, turbo or not, a lineup makes...

Even if Buick is going to handle the larger cars in the same showroom its still a bit strange. Definetly seems they're changing the brand hiearchy.

Who knows, this may put them in a very good position though if gas prices go up.

 

I was under the impression thay GTO "ideas" WERE in the studios at the same time Camaro mock ups were... Not to mention the "RWD Pontiac sketches" shown to the media during their preview of the 900s/Lambdas/Malibu/Aura. Then again, we've heard SO MANY rumors, who knows whats really there and what isn't. But, Lutz did give the word that GTO isn't dead and I'm willing to believe him, since he said RWD performance wasn't dead when everyone else said it was.

I'm glad to see Pontiac getting new life for sure, but no V8 is a deal breaker for me. That said, I'm willing to compromise for high performance ECOTECS in the majority of the offerings, but I will require a V8 in the top models, or all credibility and purchase potential will be lost in my mind. Like it or not, V8s are an essential part of Pontiac DNA.

 

Agreed. Not having a V8 in a top model poncho would have me looking at something else. As FOG stated, a V8 powered car is part of Pontiac's DNA and alot of Poncho enthusiasts would be totally turned off.
I like the ecotecs and sixes but it's that V8 that draws you into Pontiac. Part of what gets customers in the showroom is them thinking that their six cylinder GP's and G6's share a bloodline with the V8 heroes of past.

BTW: Guy, great use of my second favorite line in Hunt for red October.

 

One thing on the topic of V8's. Do you guys really think that gas is going to stay around $2.50, or where it is right now in your neck of the woods? Absolutely not.

In the later part of this decade, gas will be $3.00 if we are lucky. Myself? I love having the 4 cylinder in my Solstice. Sure the power is not neck snapping, but with less than $2,000 I can bring a 177hp engine over 200hp and still maintain the great EPA numbers that it gets.

Plus, there's the Solstice GXP. Plenty of power with great fuel economy. Enough to satisfy the V8 purists, while attracting a nice tuner crowd. Which the last time I checked, was filled with a bunch of twenty somethings in southern California, one of the toughest markets to penetrate.

The Solstice did for Pontiac what the CTS did for Cadillac. Now, that design language from top to bottom will find its way in Pontiacs future lineup.

Look, status quo is not going to cut it anymore for Pontiac, or more importantly General Motors. The "same old same old" just doesn't cut it and the Solstice being as popular as it is, with people begging for a "coupe," or a "fastback" based on the Solstice on the GM Fastlane Blog and over at SolsticeForum everyday is really, really telling about what people would like to purchase in the here and now.

 

Is it just me, or am I the only one who understands that cylinders and displacement does not equal mileage?!

The active fuel management (call it whatever you like) along with basic improvements in the efficency of modern V8 engines means one does not have to give up performance to get economy any more!!!!

Case in point is the current V8's offered by GM. When you can outfit an Impala or GP with a V8 and get BETTER mileage than most 6's it seems like a no brainer to me! Sure, if you keep your foot in it all of the time, you will suffer at the pump, but that is the case with any drivetrain!

The only example on todays market that leaps to mind that disregards economy is the SRT-8 Mopar offerings. They are hit with a gas-guzzler tax, but they are targeting a market that could not care less about economy- and rightfully so!

I have heard enough (as an average consumer) about those evil V8's and how they will kill off our natural resources and soak up all of our gas- it is complete garbage! I want the option to have the performance when I want it and the economy the rest of the time, and current (and future) technology provides it! This is not intended to be a flame directed toward anyone in particular, I am just sick of the general dismissal of V8's because of a 20 year old non-economic mentality.

Poncho not offering full and mid-size PERFORMANCE platforms with V8's is fine, if they want to be second rate for another decade and watch their market share evaporate futher.....

 

The V8 engine still has more friction than a 4 and a 6, so even with AFM, you'll still give up some fuel economy.