Pontiac renaissance! It's coming!
07-07-2009, 04:17 PM
#256
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The auto industry operates in a universe about 2-3 years ahead of mere mortals. Anyone whith contacts in the industry and keeps tabs is also running a couple or few years into the future.
Back in 2004-2005, Pontiac was keying it's new assult on both the expanded G6 line and a new RWD Zeta coupe and sedan. GM started backpeddling on the promised versions of the G6 and froze, then shrunk, then killed the North American Zeta program for Pontiac (which was supposed to get the a Zeta Grand Prix and GTO for the 2008MY).
Once GM killed those 2 lines, regardless as to how we felt about them (Charlie and I have very different views) we both were in lockstep in realizing that with GM gutting it's volume car's potential (G6) and gutting a line that would define Pontiac's excitement (the RWD Grand Prix) and having no replacement and no other plans, Pontiac was all but toast.
At the time I was close friends with someone working directly on the program Zeta at Holden (which by default meant I was aquainted with a few people on Zeta), and knew a couple of well respected automotive writers in Australia. The parameters that the Zeta was being developed and the timelines for US manufacture was part of the program down there, pending final approval which at the time was all but certain and a mere formality.
In retrospect, what we all (myself and the guys at Holden) miscalculated was how desparate GM was for cash, and the impact of the collapse of the large truck & SUV market back in 2005 was to GM North America. At the time, Holden was still a quasi-independent company and was essentially rolling in cash, and the feeling back then was that Holden was finally being given a crack at the US market, and there were people within North America that were giving Holden strong support (while there were obviously people at North America doing everything they could to wreck it).
Now that it's been a few years, I think I can say more than I could before regarding Zeta. IMO looking back, I think Pontiac to a large degree was put into a position where GM had to accept a great G6 and RWD vehicles made by Holden. In a some ways it was the same backdoor intrigue that forced GM to make the Camaro which they otherwise wouldn't have made.
There was no real backup programs for Pontiac. An example. The new Ford Taurus was initially envisioned as the production version of the Intercepter concept. It was to be RWD and and it wasn't to be out till next year at the very earliest. The program was accelerated greatly (it was done in just 24 months!) and for convience, it was based on the Five Hundred's FWD/AWD chassis. With the RWD Pontiac Grand Prix, GM would have normally kept an option that included a FWD sedan as they have done with the Impala. GM did not do this with the Grand Prix, and therefore froze in a RWD Grand Prix replacement... the G8.
Trouble was, GM also planned on continued high sales of large pickups and SUVs. When those crashed (and failed to rebound), in essence, the North American Zeta died. Camaro saw daylight because it was cheap and the hardware was essentially surplus Holden parts, so GM didn't need to establish a whole new OEM system here in North America. Camaro production is low enough that no real additional money has to be spent creating bigger suppliers for Zeta exclusive parts.
My steadfast belief in Pontiac's Zeta was based on the plan that essentially forced GM to produce the cars for Pontiac since there were no alternatives (Alpha was a rehashed early Lutz version of the original Kappa plan, and wasn't serious till the last couple of years since it also initially required a whole new supplier network). Truth is GM went broke before everyone (including largely Holden) realized it.
That left Pontiac without new cars, and made it an easy target to kill, next to Buick (which for all practical purposes is now a Chinese brand being made and sold in North America).
Back in 2004-2005, Pontiac was keying it's new assult on both the expanded G6 line and a new RWD Zeta coupe and sedan. GM started backpeddling on the promised versions of the G6 and froze, then shrunk, then killed the North American Zeta program for Pontiac (which was supposed to get the a Zeta Grand Prix and GTO for the 2008MY).
Once GM killed those 2 lines, regardless as to how we felt about them (Charlie and I have very different views) we both were in lockstep in realizing that with GM gutting it's volume car's potential (G6) and gutting a line that would define Pontiac's excitement (the RWD Grand Prix) and having no replacement and no other plans, Pontiac was all but toast.
At the time I was close friends with someone working directly on the program Zeta at Holden (which by default meant I was aquainted with a few people on Zeta), and knew a couple of well respected automotive writers in Australia. The parameters that the Zeta was being developed and the timelines for US manufacture was part of the program down there, pending final approval which at the time was all but certain and a mere formality.
In retrospect, what we all (myself and the guys at Holden) miscalculated was how desparate GM was for cash, and the impact of the collapse of the large truck & SUV market back in 2005 was to GM North America. At the time, Holden was still a quasi-independent company and was essentially rolling in cash, and the feeling back then was that Holden was finally being given a crack at the US market, and there were people within North America that were giving Holden strong support (while there were obviously people at North America doing everything they could to wreck it).
Now that it's been a few years, I think I can say more than I could before regarding Zeta. IMO looking back, I think Pontiac to a large degree was put into a position where GM had to accept a great G6 and RWD vehicles made by Holden. In a some ways it was the same backdoor intrigue that forced GM to make the Camaro which they otherwise wouldn't have made.
There was no real backup programs for Pontiac. An example. The new Ford Taurus was initially envisioned as the production version of the Intercepter concept. It was to be RWD and and it wasn't to be out till next year at the very earliest. The program was accelerated greatly (it was done in just 24 months!) and for convience, it was based on the Five Hundred's FWD/AWD chassis. With the RWD Pontiac Grand Prix, GM would have normally kept an option that included a FWD sedan as they have done with the Impala. GM did not do this with the Grand Prix, and therefore froze in a RWD Grand Prix replacement... the G8.
Trouble was, GM also planned on continued high sales of large pickups and SUVs. When those crashed (and failed to rebound), in essence, the North American Zeta died. Camaro saw daylight because it was cheap and the hardware was essentially surplus Holden parts, so GM didn't need to establish a whole new OEM system here in North America. Camaro production is low enough that no real additional money has to be spent creating bigger suppliers for Zeta exclusive parts.
My steadfast belief in Pontiac's Zeta was based on the plan that essentially forced GM to produce the cars for Pontiac since there were no alternatives (Alpha was a rehashed early Lutz version of the original Kappa plan, and wasn't serious till the last couple of years since it also initially required a whole new supplier network). Truth is GM went broke before everyone (including largely Holden) realized it.
That left Pontiac without new cars, and made it an easy target to kill, next to Buick (which for all practical purposes is now a Chinese brand being made and sold in North America).
It kinda reminds me of musical chairs, and the when the music stopped, Pontiac had a stale product line and no chair to sit in.
07-07-2009, 04:31 PM
#257
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I wonder what might have happened, had there been a huge enthusiast groundswell of support for such a program - like the Camaro got.
Part of the reason I started this thread way back then, was in the hope of igniting some real enthusiasm for the idea, even in some small way. Everyone was somehow still transfixed on the next gen GTO -- which was already deader than a doorknob a year before this old thread even started. Even three years ago, it was obvious that Zeta wasn't going to save Pontiac and the brand needed to dramatically and quickly switch gears to survive.
But the idea just plain ran out of gas....
Part of the reason I started this thread way back then, was in the hope of igniting some real enthusiasm for the idea, even in some small way. Everyone was somehow still transfixed on the next gen GTO -- which was already deader than a doorknob a year before this old thread even started. Even three years ago, it was obvious that Zeta wasn't going to save Pontiac and the brand needed to dramatically and quickly switch gears to survive.
But the idea just plain ran out of gas....
But I don't think you'll get a huge groundswell on a rumor. When a model gets canceled, that's a different case entirely. Just look at all the campaigning that happens for TV series that have a small but ardent fan base. But it's hard to get people motivated for a series that hasn't been made yet.
07-08-2009, 12:08 AM
#258
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Imagine if Chrysler comes out with a RWD 200C and it becomes as hot as the 300 was in 2005. Now, the 200C may be bigger than what a Pontiac alpha would be, but I think consumers are dying for new and different approaches to conventional segments. Why not make an American economy RWD sedan that's sporty and can seat 4 adults? Unless the styling is an absolute abortion, this can't lose.
07-08-2009, 12:34 AM
#259
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Imagine if Chrysler comes out with a RWD 200C and it becomes as hot as the 300 was in 2005. Now, the 200C may be bigger than what a Pontiac alpha would be, but I think consumers are dying for new and different approaches to conventional segments. Why not make an American economy RWD sedan that's sporty and can seat 4 adults? Unless the styling is an absolute abortion, this can't lose.
07-08-2009, 10:19 AM
#260
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Once GM killed those 2 lines, regardless as to how we felt about them (Charlie and I have very different views) we both were in lockstep in realizing that with GM gutting it's volume car's potential (G6) and gutting a line that would define Pontiac's excitement (the RWD Grand Prix) and having no replacement and no other plans, Pontiac was all but toast.
The difference was, I said they were cancelled, and you insisted the were still on. I remember plenty of page long posts by you, ripping me a new a-hole for not believing you. Branden would also chime in with a cameo appearance here and there, telling me I hate Pontiac.
That's okay, I forgive you guys.
07-12-2009, 09:48 AM
#261
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The potential does exist for Chevrolet to pick up the "we build excitement" energy from the soon to be defunct Pontiac.
07-12-2009, 03:33 PM
#262
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This is a very sad thread, IMO (But also very informative)
My hope is that GM "never forgets" and uses that focus to fight it's way back.
I remember reading some articles about how The Rick (Wagoner) really regretted pulling the plug on Oldsmobile and even kept some Oldsmobile memorabilia in his office as a reminder of 'what GM lost'
I also remember reading insider accounts about Rick fighting tooth and nail against the decision to kill Pontiac.
And in the end, I think it was this reluctance to 'give up potential' that was his swan song. To Rick, GM had all the potential in the world *if* it could only get through this one last current crisis. EXCEPT: it was ALWAYS "if we can get through this" in crisis after crisis.
I'm very much like Rick. I see HUGE potential in the company that GM WAS and I am very reluctant to let that go, so I feel as if I kind of understand his mindset.
I guess, while I respect the heck out of Wagoner (like him or not, does anybody here want what he went through, as a human being?) and I can't ever see myself making the call to kill any GM division, no matter how bad the company got. I'm also glad that someone who can put business sense over emotion came into the picture and is attempting to correct GM's path now.
That's my solace over Pontiac. GM has battled and hopefully learned from this experience. Now we have the four strongest soldiers from the army and FINALLY the resources to let them wage a full scale war.
My hope is that GM "never forgets" and uses that focus to fight it's way back.
I remember reading some articles about how The Rick (Wagoner) really regretted pulling the plug on Oldsmobile and even kept some Oldsmobile memorabilia in his office as a reminder of 'what GM lost'
I also remember reading insider accounts about Rick fighting tooth and nail against the decision to kill Pontiac.
And in the end, I think it was this reluctance to 'give up potential' that was his swan song. To Rick, GM had all the potential in the world *if* it could only get through this one last current crisis. EXCEPT: it was ALWAYS "if we can get through this" in crisis after crisis.
I'm very much like Rick. I see HUGE potential in the company that GM WAS and I am very reluctant to let that go, so I feel as if I kind of understand his mindset.
I guess, while I respect the heck out of Wagoner (like him or not, does anybody here want what he went through, as a human being?) and I can't ever see myself making the call to kill any GM division, no matter how bad the company got. I'm also glad that someone who can put business sense over emotion came into the picture and is attempting to correct GM's path now.
That's my solace over Pontiac. GM has battled and hopefully learned from this experience. Now we have the four strongest soldiers from the army and FINALLY the resources to let them wage a full scale war.
Last edited by FUTURE_OF_GM; 07-12-2009 at 03:35 PM.
07-12-2009, 08:09 PM
#263
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I think I could.
Hummer would have never happened. Saturn would have been cut down a long time ago. Saab, would have either been refocused or sold. And Pontiac.... well....I figured it was on it's death walk when EVEN the GTO couldn't succeed.
Oldsmobile really hurt though. I definitely would have killed Buick and kept Olds. But....who knew the Chinese would love Buick so much?
Last edited by Z284ever; 07-12-2009 at 08:34 PM.
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