OK. Time to break some news here (since it's been a slow week).
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,472
From: South Bend, Indiana
Originally posted by guionM
Corvette excluded.
If you are expecting a 5.3 and a 6.0 (the 5.7's days do seem to be ending soon), then no, it's not likely . If you are counting 2 trims of the same engine (much like the 4th gen Z28's & SS's different engine levels) then yes, there will likely be a middle engine.
As far as it being hard to accept quicker Pontiac's, again this is an instance where the 4th gen F-cars have really screwed up peoples perceptions of Chevrolet's rank in the performance hiarchy. Pontiac is the division that kept 300+ horsepower Super Duty engines in F bodys when Z28s were running about 260. It was Pontiac that was running Turbos in everything from Sunbirds to Grand Prixs to Trans Ams (and even Gran Ams!)in the late 80s, It was the Firebird Trans Ams that ran higher top speeds than Camaro Z28s all the way up to at least the 1998 (look it up!) despite having the same engines since 1982.
In case you've missed it, Grand Prix GTPs have been flattening Luminas Monte Carlos & Impalas for a decade. Grand Ams are sportier than Malibus (and marginally quicker). Even in the dark days of 1974, Pontiac was producing way more performance models then Chevy: Ventura GTO, Trans Am (400 & 455HD versions), Formula (in 350, 400, & 455 cubic inches) vs Chevy's Corvette (it's 454 put out less power than the T/A's 455) and the Z28 (245 horses if I remember).
Corvette excluded.
If you are expecting a 5.3 and a 6.0 (the 5.7's days do seem to be ending soon), then no, it's not likely . If you are counting 2 trims of the same engine (much like the 4th gen Z28's & SS's different engine levels) then yes, there will likely be a middle engine.
As far as it being hard to accept quicker Pontiac's, again this is an instance where the 4th gen F-cars have really screwed up peoples perceptions of Chevrolet's rank in the performance hiarchy. Pontiac is the division that kept 300+ horsepower Super Duty engines in F bodys when Z28s were running about 260. It was Pontiac that was running Turbos in everything from Sunbirds to Grand Prixs to Trans Ams (and even Gran Ams!)in the late 80s, It was the Firebird Trans Ams that ran higher top speeds than Camaro Z28s all the way up to at least the 1998 (look it up!) despite having the same engines since 1982.
In case you've missed it, Grand Prix GTPs have been flattening Luminas Monte Carlos & Impalas for a decade. Grand Ams are sportier than Malibus (and marginally quicker). Even in the dark days of 1974, Pontiac was producing way more performance models then Chevy: Ventura GTO, Trans Am (400 & 455HD versions), Formula (in 350, 400, & 455 cubic inches) vs Chevy's Corvette (it's 454 put out less power than the T/A's 455) and the Z28 (245 horses if I remember).
I've always thought of them as even, with Pontiac having a little more risque styling. I think the general public has the same perception...
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
I don't know if I would buy a Camaro Z28/SS if the GTO was faster, it kind of seems pointless.
I don't know if I would buy a Camaro Z28/SS if the GTO was faster, it kind of seems pointless.
The way I see GTO is a "personal coupe" with exceptional power...
A Camaro is a sports car though, and should be able to outrun the GTO...
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
It better be smaller than the GTO unless the GTO plans to shrink and loose a few hundred pounds. The GTO does seem to be a personnal sport coupe that comes with a nice amount of luxuries and a back seat that is larger than a normal coupe. It seems like it is supposed to be a fast, upscale coupe but not an all out "sports car" that the top model Camaro should be. To have the GTO faster almost seems like an insult to the Camaro in general. You will have this car(Camaro) that has this mean look and stance and just flat-out looks bad-*** and then you have this other car(GTO) and it is much more understated and quiet but it will still blow the doors off your Camaro. If the Camaro is not faster than the GTO, then what is the draw? It will have to be significantly less expensive than the GTO to make it worth it. Now instead of being a "Corvette for half the price", it will be a "not quite a GTO". All this just doesn't sit right with me. I guess we still don't know if the GTO will be faster than the Camaro. I could live with the same power rating but with the Camaro comming in at a few hundred pounds less to have the performance advantage.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
It better be smaller than the GTO unless the GTO plans to shrink and loose a few hundred pounds. The GTO does seem to be a personnal sport coupe that comes with a nice amount of luxuries and a back seat that is larger than a normal coupe. It seems like it is supposed to be a fast, upscale coupe but not an all out "sports car" that the top model Camaro should be. To have the GTO faster almost seems like an insult to the Camaro in general. You will have this car(Camaro) that has this mean look and stance and just flat-out looks bad-*** and then you have this other car(GTO) and it is much more understated and quiet but it will still blow the doors off your Camaro. If the Camaro is not faster than the GTO, then what is the draw? It will have to be significantly less expensive than the GTO to make it worth it. Now instead of being a "Corvette for half the price", it will be a "not quite a GTO". All this just doesn't sit right with me. I guess we still don't know if the GTO will be faster than the Camaro. I could live with the same power rating but with the Camaro comming in at a few hundred pounds less to have the performance advantage.
It better be smaller than the GTO unless the GTO plans to shrink and loose a few hundred pounds. The GTO does seem to be a personnal sport coupe that comes with a nice amount of luxuries and a back seat that is larger than a normal coupe. It seems like it is supposed to be a fast, upscale coupe but not an all out "sports car" that the top model Camaro should be. To have the GTO faster almost seems like an insult to the Camaro in general. You will have this car(Camaro) that has this mean look and stance and just flat-out looks bad-*** and then you have this other car(GTO) and it is much more understated and quiet but it will still blow the doors off your Camaro. If the Camaro is not faster than the GTO, then what is the draw? It will have to be significantly less expensive than the GTO to make it worth it. Now instead of being a "Corvette for half the price", it will be a "not quite a GTO". All this just doesn't sit right with me. I guess we still don't know if the GTO will be faster than the Camaro. I could live with the same power rating but with the Camaro comming in at a few hundred pounds less to have the performance advantage.
Here's a couple of data bases that won't make you feel any better, but demonstrates that with like bodies, Pontiac is traditionally quicker (even in the 80s with identical powertrains, Pontiac at times was quicker, and always had the higher top speed):
http://members.optushome.com.au/ozfb...rfdb/perf.html
If we are looking at GTO's historic performance compared to the Chevelle SS 396 (again like bodies), there was the occasional SS that outran a GTO, but to my knowledge, the only year that happened was in 1970, with an engine that drove the SS price firmly in upper GTO territory.
If Camaro & GTO return in the same body, if the new GTO runs about $34,000 including an optional LS6-type engine and very few options, and the Camaro SS runs about $32,000 with a massaged LS1-type engine (about what the last SS' cost in 2002), then where's the problem?
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
I guess the problem is that the Camaro would be moving further down the perfomance chain at GM and owning a Camaro then would be not as impressive as it once was. I guess the only problem I have with Pontiac over Chevy has to do with the Camaro because that is the car I want to own and don't want to be out-gunned by another similar car. If they are both similarly priced(within a few thousand dollars of each other) but one is bigger, faster, better equiped, and maybe more sophisticated(GTO) why the hell would I buy a Camaro unless it is much cheaper? I think this just further devalues the Camaro name in the sake of boosting the GTO and the last thing the Camaro needs is to be introduced in 07' with a less-than-steallar performing car and performance image that is now not as good as a GTO and maybe can't go head to head with a Mustang. What if GM decides to have the GTO take over that spot and let the Camaro just go against other bottom feeders? I don't think this will happen but who knows. What if the top people at GM don't want the Camaro to be faster than the GTO at all? Then the Camaro will not be faster than the Corvette(I know there was the discussion about this but today it seems that there is a ceiling for other cars compared to a Corvette) or GTO and the Mustang will have free reign over where it can go but the Camaro will be locked in.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Originally posted by Z28x
Will the Camaro be smaller than the next GTO?
Will the Camaro be smaller than the next GTO?
From what I understand the car has been quite succesful in the styling area
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,381
What if the Camaro is smaller and lighter, maybe less powerful than a GTO and a few thousand cheaper than the GTO. But because it is lighter, have similar speed (although probably a little bit slower) but handles better because of the weight advantage. I would probably go with the Camaro, that could just be me tho. If the Camaro is more agressive in styling, and can out handle the GTO, and thus be faster around a track, i think less hp numbers wouldnt be that horrid.
BTW, im interested in what it looks like so far. Got any hints?
BTW, im interested in what it looks like so far. Got any hints?
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
I could see the top mass produced Camaro getting 400HP 6.0L and the mainstream GTO getting the same 400HP V8. Then the Judge/GXP/LMNOP GTO will get a 475HP version of the next Z06 engine.
Since the Camaro is lighter by a few hundred lbs. the 400HP Camaro will be faster than the 400HP GTO, but not the 475HP GTO
Since the Camaro is lighter by a few hundred lbs. the 400HP Camaro will be faster than the 400HP GTO, but not the 475HP GTO
Registered User
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
Originally posted by Z28x
Since the Camaro is lighter by a few hundred lbs. the 400HP Camaro will be faster than the 400HP GTO, but not the 475HP GTO
Since the Camaro is lighter by a few hundred lbs. the 400HP Camaro will be faster than the 400HP GTO, but not the 475HP GTO
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
No dice. If there is a limited edition 475hp GTO then why not have that same engine in the Camaro instead of the GTO or at least, in addition to? I would like to know the reasoning behind why GM thinks the GTO should be faster than the Camaro(if that is the case).
No dice. If there is a limited edition 475hp GTO then why not have that same engine in the Camaro instead of the GTO or at least, in addition to? I would like to know the reasoning behind why GM thinks the GTO should be faster than the Camaro(if that is the case).