OK. Time to break some news here (since it's been a slow week).
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 848
From: Melb, Aust
Originally posted by ProudPony
Understood.
But let's be honest, Ford is able to source engine development in cheaper areas like the Middle East, and Australia (Oz is famous for their 351-C development and recent BOSS and 3V programs on Ford's mod-motors), and they are able to distribute the manufacturing costs globally, just like GM did with the GTO sourcing, and other goods.
As the mod-motor program at Ford matures, these engines keep getting refined with increased HP and lower costs as tooling gets depreciated. I can not argue that a 500hp-spec engine is cheaper for Ford than GM, because I don't have the actual cost data, but I doubt anyone else on this board does either. So to say one cannot do it better than the other is purely speculation IMO. And to continue that assumption to include the whole car is no better an assumption.
Understood.
But let's be honest, Ford is able to source engine development in cheaper areas like the Middle East, and Australia (Oz is famous for their 351-C development and recent BOSS and 3V programs on Ford's mod-motors), and they are able to distribute the manufacturing costs globally, just like GM did with the GTO sourcing, and other goods.
As the mod-motor program at Ford matures, these engines keep getting refined with increased HP and lower costs as tooling gets depreciated. I can not argue that a 500hp-spec engine is cheaper for Ford than GM, because I don't have the actual cost data, but I doubt anyone else on this board does either. So to say one cannot do it better than the other is purely speculation IMO. And to continue that assumption to include the whole car is no better an assumption.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by AnthonyHSV
FORD would have to pump lots of dollars into Ford Aus to get exports out anytime soon. They are running at full capacity at present.
FORD would have to pump lots of dollars into Ford Aus to get exports out anytime soon. They are running at full capacity at present.
One of the big hurdles to jump in new parts here stateside is the development costs and associated testing. I am certain that Ford of Oz has lower overhead and much leaner developmental groups than the big bureaucratic corporate system in Michigan (adds a
here because it is so unnecessary too).I just listed the Aussie 2V Cleveland heads, the BOSS program, and the 3V developments as examples. They do awesome work down there. And honestly, Ford-US would be goofy if they don't use some of the great things Ford-Oz has developed in the next few years - at least IMO. I'd personally love to see the whole XR8 unit sold up here!
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by PacerX
No, Cobra's stated purpose is not to offer untouchable performance.
You forgot to add "for the dollar".
Then what is it?
I recall guionM interviewing Coletti, the car's "creator", IN-PERSON... so who have you talked to with greater authority, that disagrees with Coletti?
Folks may say things along those lines, but nobody wants a $50,000 Mustang.
Again, tell that to the people buying $50k Saleens, Roushes, Cobra R's, Steedas, and the like. I don't see these companies folding-up on a daily basis. And Shelby is even coming in to play too - I'm sure there's no more room for him in this party.
Get Saint Peter on the line... I'm ready for my halo.
1) Cobra cannot approach a $50,000 price point and move enough cars to make it worth it. Then Ford is competing with Corvette, and Corvette has laid the smack down on all comers for 50 years. Mustang wants to be next?
Why do you say "Mustang wants to be next"? Reaching there, aren't you?
Another thing, even with a $1000 guzzler tax, the current Cobra is sitting on the lot delivered for $34k - why the he-ll do you think it will take $15k more to find another 100hp!?!? An $80 pulley and a $250 chip sends this thing to 500hp dude! Read a book, it's been done!
2) Corvette + GTO + CTSv + Camaro + SSR + SS Truck + Holden = a lot more engines and transmissions than just the volume of the Cobra. The costs get distributed better and economy of scale works in the favor of GM, especially due to the commonality with the trucks.
In all reality, we're not talking "whole engines" here. Ford's mod-program is almost all-encompassing. The 4.6 in the trucks is the same as the Crown Vic is the same as the Mustang, etc. The big difference is in the heads and cams - big whoop. Point is, Ford made a huge investment 10 years ago for just this reason - family-based engine programs. If you don't think the sales volume of 5.4 engines in the new F150's alone won't help the cost of THE SAME 5.4 IN THE MUSTANG, you need an examination.
3) GTO and Camaro's price points are not going to be driven higher because of the powertrains. They'll go up because of equipment, and because more power = more options and fluffy stuff = more $$$$.
Agreed, mostly. So why do you beleive Ford's costs will go up because of powertrains? Are the laws of economics different across town in Michigan?
4) The Cobra's current engine and transmission are highly problematic since they are SINGLE USE. Ford can improve this a little with sharing volumes with the Lightning (the GT doesn't even register), but they can't mirror the huge volumes GMT-800/900 can throw at the problem. There are no other Ford performance cars to share volume. GM has at LEAST 4 on the way, and probably more. I'll bet there are more LSx family motors built every year than any other program in North America, and this will continue to the Gen IV.
Again, you lose me. The same block used in the Mustang is used in everything from the F-150 to the Vics, Marquis, even Marauder. It's also used down in Oz, and in Europe to a lesser degree. We're talking 1-million-plus per year volume. How's that "not enough volume"?
5) The GTO buyer will be willing to pay for more than a Camaro buyer... at least in general. The GTO buyer group has a smaller percentage of folks that want to hunt down Mustangs for giggles. They'll end up sharing powertrains across both.
No, Cobra's stated purpose is not to offer untouchable performance.
You forgot to add "for the dollar".
Then what is it?
I recall guionM interviewing Coletti, the car's "creator", IN-PERSON... so who have you talked to with greater authority, that disagrees with Coletti?
Folks may say things along those lines, but nobody wants a $50,000 Mustang.
Again, tell that to the people buying $50k Saleens, Roushes, Cobra R's, Steedas, and the like. I don't see these companies folding-up on a daily basis. And Shelby is even coming in to play too - I'm sure there's no more room for him in this party.
Get Saint Peter on the line... I'm ready for my halo.
1) Cobra cannot approach a $50,000 price point and move enough cars to make it worth it. Then Ford is competing with Corvette, and Corvette has laid the smack down on all comers for 50 years. Mustang wants to be next?
Why do you say "Mustang wants to be next"? Reaching there, aren't you?
Another thing, even with a $1000 guzzler tax, the current Cobra is sitting on the lot delivered for $34k - why the he-ll do you think it will take $15k more to find another 100hp!?!? An $80 pulley and a $250 chip sends this thing to 500hp dude! Read a book, it's been done!
2) Corvette + GTO + CTSv + Camaro + SSR + SS Truck + Holden = a lot more engines and transmissions than just the volume of the Cobra. The costs get distributed better and economy of scale works in the favor of GM, especially due to the commonality with the trucks.
In all reality, we're not talking "whole engines" here. Ford's mod-program is almost all-encompassing. The 4.6 in the trucks is the same as the Crown Vic is the same as the Mustang, etc. The big difference is in the heads and cams - big whoop. Point is, Ford made a huge investment 10 years ago for just this reason - family-based engine programs. If you don't think the sales volume of 5.4 engines in the new F150's alone won't help the cost of THE SAME 5.4 IN THE MUSTANG, you need an examination.
3) GTO and Camaro's price points are not going to be driven higher because of the powertrains. They'll go up because of equipment, and because more power = more options and fluffy stuff = more $$$$.
Agreed, mostly. So why do you beleive Ford's costs will go up because of powertrains? Are the laws of economics different across town in Michigan?
4) The Cobra's current engine and transmission are highly problematic since they are SINGLE USE. Ford can improve this a little with sharing volumes with the Lightning (the GT doesn't even register), but they can't mirror the huge volumes GMT-800/900 can throw at the problem. There are no other Ford performance cars to share volume. GM has at LEAST 4 on the way, and probably more. I'll bet there are more LSx family motors built every year than any other program in North America, and this will continue to the Gen IV.
Again, you lose me. The same block used in the Mustang is used in everything from the F-150 to the Vics, Marquis, even Marauder. It's also used down in Oz, and in Europe to a lesser degree. We're talking 1-million-plus per year volume. How's that "not enough volume"?
5) The GTO buyer will be willing to pay for more than a Camaro buyer... at least in general. The GTO buyer group has a smaller percentage of folks that want to hunt down Mustangs for giggles. They'll end up sharing powertrains across both.
Last edited by ProudPony; Nov 21, 2003 at 07:48 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
For the Cobra to have the same X performance like the Vette, it will have to have X+Y horsepower to equal the Vette's X performance. That means that to equal the Corvette performance the Cobra will need to have a sizable lead in hp. It is for this reason that I think the Corvette will not really be threatened, especially the ZO6. The Cobra will have to have at least 550 to equal the Vettes 500 and will Ford do that? Can Ford do that? Can Ford do that at a price that people will pay? I sure have my doubts.
To answer your question about "at what point would the companies say enough is enough".................the whole trick is to make the other guy do say "enough" first and I think.....no I KNOW the Corvette will not loose this one. It could get to a point where the Cobra is limited by the GT and you would have the same pitfalls as the Camaro and Corvette have.
I think a big problem here is that there are too many unknown variables:C6 weight, final ratings, ZO6 ratings/weight, anything concrete on the new Camaro, and the same for the Cobra, and to top it off, pricing for all of them. That is a lot of stuff and that is not even throwing the GTO into the equation. I think the biggest unknown is the Cobras power and price. That will provide a lot of answers.
For the Cobra to have the same X performance like the Vette, it will have to have X+Y horsepower to equal the Vette's X performance. That means that to equal the Corvette performance the Cobra will need to have a sizable lead in hp. It is for this reason that I think the Corvette will not really be threatened, especially the ZO6. The Cobra will have to have at least 550 to equal the Vettes 500 and will Ford do that? Can Ford do that? Can Ford do that at a price that people will pay? I sure have my doubts.
To answer your question about "at what point would the companies say enough is enough".................the whole trick is to make the other guy do say "enough" first and I think.....no I KNOW the Corvette will not loose this one. It could get to a point where the Cobra is limited by the GT and you would have the same pitfalls as the Camaro and Corvette have.
I think a big problem here is that there are too many unknown variables:C6 weight, final ratings, ZO6 ratings/weight, anything concrete on the new Camaro, and the same for the Cobra, and to top it off, pricing for all of them. That is a lot of stuff and that is not even throwing the GTO into the equation. I think the biggest unknown is the Cobras power and price. That will provide a lot of answers.
Follow this with me - it's easy...
*The GT-40 will be Ford's supercar, i.e. Viper-killer, Z06-killer, and whatever else-killer, regardless of price. Are you aware that the Ferrari 360 Modena is the target to beat for Team GT? Ford purchased a couple of these, made the team drive them and study them, them tear them apart and research them before doing the GT40. The new GT WILL BEAT the Modena, I promise you. If you think it won't handle the Viper or Vette - enjoy your wet dream. It's like 1963 all over again.
*The Cobra is aimed squarely at beating the BASE Corvette - PERIOD. The base Vette provides the performance target, and the Cobra trys to hit the target for minimal $ - no frills, no 5-computers on board, no digital readouts, just ***** - biguns, it's that simple. Ford want's it to beat a $50k car, not a $70k car - the ZL1 and Z06 are NOT the targets. If it makes you feel better, then there - the Z06 will likely stay ahead of the "lowly Mustang", happy now?
*The Mach 1, Bullitt, Boss 302-type cars are the elevated, above-base performers, meant to "compete" with other sprtscars on a budget. SS, Z28, and whatever rice is out there.
*The Mustang GT is simply a Gran-Touring package, meaning V8 and some pasche goodies - it's the lowest-performing and least expensive V8 in the lineup - duh. I personally hope it doesn't change either because 95% of the people buying them DON'T RACE ANYTHING, ANYWHERE. I don't want to risk losing those buyers who want a V8 at a low price.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
Beating a 360 Modena is not that hard because they are not that fast(relatively speaking). I believe the current ZO6 is faster. Pricewise it looks like the two will be right there with each other. With handleing the Viper or Vette, don't be so sure. I'm not saying that it can't be done, because really it should seeing as the GT is about twice a Viper and 3x a Vette. The base Vette won't be a problem but we still don't know what the C6 ZO6 will bring or the ZL1.
As far as the Cobra goes, I know that the target is the base Vette, but some people seem to think that it will be blowing the doors of the ZO6 and that is what I was arguing against.
Something kinda interesting if you remember, the current base C6 was reported to have beat the current ZO6 around a track quite easily, so that is something to think about.
Also, if the GT is going to get more power than 500, when do they plan on doing this? It seems like it is too late for the first model year of the GT and still more and more press publications are recieving teast cars that have the 500hp motor.
As far as the Cobra goes, I know that the target is the base Vette, but some people seem to think that it will be blowing the doors of the ZO6 and that is what I was arguing against.
Something kinda interesting if you remember, the current base C6 was reported to have beat the current ZO6 around a track quite easily, so that is something to think about.
Also, if the GT is going to get more power than 500, when do they plan on doing this? It seems like it is too late for the first model year of the GT and still more and more press publications are recieving teast cars that have the 500hp motor.
Last edited by SNEAKY NEIL; Nov 21, 2003 at 08:50 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
As far as the Cobra goes, I know that the target is the base Vette, but some people seem to think that it will be blowing the doors of the ZO6 and that is what I was arguing against.
Something kinda interesting if you remember, the current base C6 was reported to have beat the current ZO6 around a track quite easily, so that is something to think about.
Also, if the GT is going to get more power than 500, when do they plan on doing this? It seems like it is too late for the first model year of the GT and still more and more press publications are recieving teast cars that have the 500hp motor.
As far as the Cobra goes, I know that the target is the base Vette, but some people seem to think that it will be blowing the doors of the ZO6 and that is what I was arguing against.
Something kinda interesting if you remember, the current base C6 was reported to have beat the current ZO6 around a track quite easily, so that is something to think about.
Also, if the GT is going to get more power than 500, when do they plan on doing this? It seems like it is too late for the first model year of the GT and still more and more press publications are recieving teast cars that have the 500hp motor.
The powertrain team for the GT is ALREADY back in the lab adding ponies. The 540hp Lightning threw a wrench in the mix, almost madating a beefier GT40. How embarassing would it be to have your $150k car outrun in the 1/4 by a $40k TRUCK?!?!
The GT40, '06 Cobra, and Lightning are the three in the mix for powerplant change - and it's happening as we speak.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,121
From: Houston
Ok I’m going to chime in again.
We are all talking about huge horsepower #s for the next Camaro and that great and all. I hope it comes back with as much hp as possible and embarrasses just about every car at any stop light.
But personally I don’t want to pay a ton for the next Camaro. I know many of you have read for the past few months that all I want is a 5th Gen RWD V8 Convertible Camaro w/ a 6 speed, but do I want to pay 40 grand for it? Hell no!
Of course it needs to perform. But it needs to do it at a “Chevy” price. guionM said Chevrolet's focus is on value. We need to remember that. If the Cobra can only be taken down by the Vette, so be it. I want an affordable Camaro. I don’t want a 600hp “Super Camaro” for $80,000. What happened to the guys in here that wanted an affordable car. Man I just hope I can get one when I graduate College. If not it’s the Solstice for me.
If GM can find a way to share platforms and motors effectively and give the Camaro a 500 hp motor and not raise the price ridiculously, then well more power to them. That would be great. But I refuse to accept an expensive Camaro. An expensive Camaro is called a Corvette.
We are all talking about huge horsepower #s for the next Camaro and that great and all. I hope it comes back with as much hp as possible and embarrasses just about every car at any stop light.
But personally I don’t want to pay a ton for the next Camaro. I know many of you have read for the past few months that all I want is a 5th Gen RWD V8 Convertible Camaro w/ a 6 speed, but do I want to pay 40 grand for it? Hell no!
Of course it needs to perform. But it needs to do it at a “Chevy” price. guionM said Chevrolet's focus is on value. We need to remember that. If the Cobra can only be taken down by the Vette, so be it. I want an affordable Camaro. I don’t want a 600hp “Super Camaro” for $80,000. What happened to the guys in here that wanted an affordable car. Man I just hope I can get one when I graduate College. If not it’s the Solstice for me.
If GM can find a way to share platforms and motors effectively and give the Camaro a 500 hp motor and not raise the price ridiculously, then well more power to them. That would be great. But I refuse to accept an expensive Camaro. An expensive Camaro is called a Corvette.
Last edited by stars1010; Nov 21, 2003 at 11:50 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Originally posted by ProudPony
Another thing, even with a $1000 guzzler tax, the current Cobra is sitting on the lot delivered for $34k - why the he-ll do you think it will take $15k more to find another 100hp!?!? An $80 pulley and a $250 chip sends this thing to 500hp dude! Read a book, it's been done!
Another thing, even with a $1000 guzzler tax, the current Cobra is sitting on the lot delivered for $34k - why the he-ll do you think it will take $15k more to find another 100hp!?!? An $80 pulley and a $250 chip sends this thing to 500hp dude! Read a book, it's been done!
Does Ford want to make the Cobra an outstanding value? You betcha. But they are a business. They are going to price a 500+ HP Mustang Cobra as high as they can relative to the competition. I'm not one to sit here and get all fluffy and sentimental: "aww look at Ford, they're gonna give us a 500 horsepower car priced $15,000 below any other vehicle with that kind of motor, just because they're so darn nice."
Registered User
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
The price does not necessarily just come from the upgrades to make the HP, it also has to factor in that the motor needs to be able to handle it and handle it in a reliable fashion. When you get into numbers like 500 hp, you have to really be concerned with all of the internals and fuel system like we all know. That doesn't come cheap, nor does the development for something like that so you are not going to get a 500 hp car for just the price increase of a new pulley and chip. The rest of the drive line has to hold up too.
I too think that the main performance model of the Camaro should be no more costly than the Mustang GT to be competative but that isn't to say that there could not be a limited edition Camaro that is more expensive and carries more performance as well. If it can not be done at a somewhat reasonable price, then forget it, but I have a hard time believing that Ford can do it and GM can not.
I too think that the main performance model of the Camaro should be no more costly than the Mustang GT to be competative but that isn't to say that there could not be a limited edition Camaro that is more expensive and carries more performance as well. If it can not be done at a somewhat reasonable price, then forget it, but I have a hard time believing that Ford can do it and GM can not.
West South Central Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,371
From: Kilgore TX 75662
Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
TI too think that the main performance model of the Camaro should be no more costly than the Mustang GT to be competative but that isn't to say that there could not be a limited edition Camaro that is more expensive and carries more performance as well.
TI too think that the main performance model of the Camaro should be no more costly than the Mustang GT to be competative but that isn't to say that there could not be a limited edition Camaro that is more expensive and carries more performance as well.
The main performance model of the (base) Camaro should be no more ... than the Mustang GT
Registered User
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
Originally posted by hp_nut
The '06 Cobra is going to come in around $43K msrp. Just a little less than the base C6. And it will drop kick the BASE C6 through the goalposts.
Wanna beat it? Go buy a $60K Z06.
Everyone happy?
The '06 Cobra is going to come in around $43K msrp. Just a little less than the base C6. And it will drop kick the BASE C6 through the goalposts.
Wanna beat it? Go buy a $60K Z06.
Everyone happy?
. The new C6 is faster than the current ZO6 and will weigh in at 3100-3200 pounds. You still don't know what the new Cobra will be rated at or how much it will weigh and that weight factor needs to be taken into consideration big time.
Prominent Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
Uuuuuuhhhh let's see......the Cobra will be around 3600 - 3800#'s...cost maybe a couple of grand more....the base C6 will weigh somewhere around 3,000 - 3,100#'s.....the Cobra will still be a Mustang.......the C6 will hand it it's @$$ on a road coarse......The C6 will be a world class car......So, sure I'm plum tickled! LOL!!!
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: Re: Re: OK. Time to break some news here (since it's been a slow week).
Originally posted by Darth Xed
Guion,
Were you able to find any info on this situation?
Guion,
Were you able to find any info on this situation?
Originally posted by PacerX
No, Cobra's stated purpose is not to offer untouchable performance.
Folks may say things along those lines, but nobody wants a $50,000 Mustang.
Get Saint Peter on the line... I'm ready for my halo.
1) Cobra cannot approach a $50,000 price point and move enough cars to make it worth it. Then Ford is competing with Corvette, and Corvette has laid the smack down on all comers for 50 years. Mustang wants to be next?
2) Corvette + GTO + CTSv + Camaro + SSR + SS Truck + Holden = a lot more engines and transmissions than just the volume of the Cobra. The costs get distributed better and economy of scale works in the favor of GM, especially due to the commonality with the trucks.
3) GTO and Camaro's price points are not going to be driven higher because of the powertrains. They'll go up because of equipment, and because more power = more options and fluffy stuff = more $$$$.
4) The Cobra's current engine and transmission are highly problematic since they are SINGLE USE. Ford can improve this a little with sharing volumes with the Lightning (the GT doesn't even register), but they can't mirror the huge volumes GMT-800/900 can throw at the problem. There are no other Ford performance cars to share volume. GM has at LEAST 4 on the way, and probably more. I'll bet there are more LSx family motors built every year than any other program in North America, and this will continue to the Gen IV.
5) The GTO buyer will be willing to pay for more than a Camaro buyer... at least in general. The GTO buyer group has a smaller percentage of folks that want to hunt down Mustangs for giggles. They'll end up sharing powertrains across both.
No, Cobra's stated purpose is not to offer untouchable performance.
Folks may say things along those lines, but nobody wants a $50,000 Mustang.
Get Saint Peter on the line... I'm ready for my halo.
1) Cobra cannot approach a $50,000 price point and move enough cars to make it worth it. Then Ford is competing with Corvette, and Corvette has laid the smack down on all comers for 50 years. Mustang wants to be next?
2) Corvette + GTO + CTSv + Camaro + SSR + SS Truck + Holden = a lot more engines and transmissions than just the volume of the Cobra. The costs get distributed better and economy of scale works in the favor of GM, especially due to the commonality with the trucks.
3) GTO and Camaro's price points are not going to be driven higher because of the powertrains. They'll go up because of equipment, and because more power = more options and fluffy stuff = more $$$$.
4) The Cobra's current engine and transmission are highly problematic since they are SINGLE USE. Ford can improve this a little with sharing volumes with the Lightning (the GT doesn't even register), but they can't mirror the huge volumes GMT-800/900 can throw at the problem. There are no other Ford performance cars to share volume. GM has at LEAST 4 on the way, and probably more. I'll bet there are more LSx family motors built every year than any other program in North America, and this will continue to the Gen IV.
5) The GTO buyer will be willing to pay for more than a Camaro buyer... at least in general. The GTO buyer group has a smaller percentage of folks that want to hunt down Mustangs for giggles. They'll end up sharing powertrains across both.
1) Nobody wants a $50,000 Cobra, but suppose Ford decided to subsitute the blown 4.6 with a blown 5.4 from the next Lightning? It would be extremely doubtful we'd be talking about a $50,000 Cobra, but one priced barely higher than the current one
. This engine does a 4.9 sprint run to 60 in a vehicle weighing over 2 tons. What could this powerplant do in a 3700 pound car? 
2) Correct on the volume of engines GM moves. Going off subject for an instant to address the Corvette won't let anyone else have their engine view, Corvette doesn't have a say in it. Just as long as the vehicle installed doesn't out perform the Corvette, it's perfectly permitted at GM. The CTSv can tailgrab a Z06, but the Vette still can edge it on a course (a sedan vs a purpose built sports car). GTO won't outperform the Vette on the track & like the CTSv it's heavier. Therefore, if Pontiac wants the Z06 engine for the GTO, there's no restriction on it other than the fact that Corvette always gets a year or so as sole owner of an engine. The 2006 GTO gets a new 6.0 liter engine, and the new one in 2007 is likely to get the new Z06 engine..........don't ask.
3) No debate there.
4) You just stated the case for dumping the Supercharged 4.6 in favor of the 5.4. I'll leave it at that.
5) No debate there, and you may be right. I disagree, but it will be a couple of years before we know. Let's file this one under "to be continued....".
Last edited by guionM; Nov 24, 2003 at 10:58 AM.