That's exactly what I've been saying all along.

If Cobra has reached Corvette territory... they need to build a better Corvette.

Mustang is a ponycar. Camaro is a ponycar. Corvette is a sportscar. (Albeit a world leading super sportscar, but a sportscar all the same.)

 

Like I said the Camaro will be right on the heels of the base Corvette like it has always been. If Ford decides to take the Mustang into/beyond Z06 and Viper territory then there won't be a Camaro to match it.

I hope the Camaro stays a "Camaro" and true to it's intention. If Ford wants to make it's Mustang into a $50,000 Corvette fighter or beyond then more power to them. The Camaro doesn't have to follow the Mustang everywhere. I thought people didn't want a GM Mustang "Camaro" but, it sure doesn't sound like it.

 

1) Who says they were going to build a 500 hp Mustang and price it like a Camaro? They can build a 500 hp Mustang and price it in the Corvette range. So, does GM build a Camaro that will beat this Cobra and price it similarly? If they do, now GM has 2 cars, with ROUGHLY the same performance, at the same price point. Why would GM have 2 cars in the same market? I thought GM was trying to eliminate overlap. OR, do they build this Camaro that will beat this Cobra and price it the same as a current SS? If they do, they'll lose money on every super Camaro they sell.

2 & 3) I agree here, but this statement doesn't address how Camaro will be able to gun down a Mustang that's powered and priced like a Corvette for a Camaro price

 

Oh no you didn't Darth!

Lets see, L69's beat early 5.0's, (and Corvettes too!) L98's beat later 5.0s. But the Third Gen was a close back and forth kinda thing. Made it kinda interesting. (kinda like it might get again, LS1s are trying to beat the 03 S/Ced M*stang ) You have the TTA and Firehawk also.

 

Let me remind you of one VERY significant point my friend...
I admire your dedication to your brand of choice, and I am damned proud that you are so dedicated to an American manufacturer...
I too have the utmost respect for what the General is capable of, and will likely be an admirer of the Corvette until my death. I have raced Camaro's since I was behind the wheel, and rode in some races before that which are still memorable to me. I have developed a true brotherly love for the car, and those who own them - as much so as my Mustang brethren.
Dodge was a super-dominant manufacturer back in the late '60's and early '70's - with 440-6-packs that were taking candy from everybody on the street. The Hemi was so dominant in racing programs it was outlawed - that's impressive. We've all had top dawgs at some point.

Now that I have laid down some goo for you - and it's all sincere, not sarcastic - I want to elighten you on a small detail in history...
There is ONE manufacturer who made a proposal to partner with Ferrari in the early '60's, and was rebuked - rudely. That treatment so infuriated the leader of that US company, that he gave an edict to his staff that Ferrari was to be dealt humiliation where it hurt the most - on the track. They were to be beaten, and beaten severely, at any cost. I'll save you the long story and tell you that the GT-40 was developed, and did just that - it beat everything it came up against...handily. Shelby continued his development of the Daytona Coupe, which competed in F1A and handily won over the likes of Ferrari, Masserati, Lotus, and other legends. In fact, Ford powered the car that brought home to the U.S. it's first and only FIA World Manufacturers Championship in 1965. That's right, no Camaro, no Corvette, no Lingenfelter, no Yenko... NOT GM, NOT DODGE - NONE OF THEM have done this BUT FORD. In fact, the dominance Ford showed in racing in the 60's is STILL resounding in legendary tales, trade, and emotion today, 35 years later, to the tune of the GT40 and Shelby's emergence in production units. Were it not for the changing of the guard at the top, and Ford's total withdrawal from racing through the '70's (which I feel was tragic in it's own right), there's no telling how far the domination would have gone.
Now, until your chosen company hands the likes of Ferrari, Lotus, Bugatti, Masserati, and others a smack-down, spare me the opinion of what Ford CAN'T DO. "PERIOD".

Another thing - for the exception of Petersen/Kranefuss in the 80's, there are more true racing guys - with race car seat time and racing history - running the show at Ford right now than there has been since Henry himself was in charge. These boys love to race, love to win, and they know what it takes to get there. When the CEO is a professed Mustang and performance fanatic, you know the Mustang and Ford's performance will get financed. Just about anything Coletti needs can be justified right now - he's making profits for Ford, and that's what they want more of. So as long as the sales and the money is there, I'd be scared to be on the other side - at least until these guys retire or move to other companies!

You see, I'm fairly certain I'll be at a track somewhere in my 2006 GT, or GT-500, or Cobra, or BOSS 302, or Saleen, or Roush, or Lightning, or GT40 (if a rich relative dies )... what can I expect you in?
You might win, I might win, but either way I can promise you I won't be embarrassed.

Lighten up. Give credit where it's due. You've been eating high on the LS-hog for a while, now it's time to share a little.
Give credit where it's due, and encorage competition between US companies - it's good for us both. Save the trash-and-bash for rice, whaddaya say?

 

Alright, see what you guys think of this scenario. What if you have the top Camaro that will smoke the Cobra for a similar price or less. The Camaro will have Corvette beating performance too, base Corvette. So that will probably be the ZO6 motor in the Camaro but the price for the Camaro will be greater than the base Corvette but less than the ZO6. That Camaro will be faster than the base Corvette but slower than the ZO6 because of weight, aerodynamics, ect. Do you think enough people would pay for that Camaro over the base Corvette to have Corvette and Cobra beating power? Or do you think that those people would rather have the Vette that is slower because "it is a Vette"? It would not tread on the ZO6 because it would not be as fast and would not have the same dynamics. This Camaro would instead of being a bargain base Corvette, like the current Z28, would be a bargain ZO6 without having superior handling, braking, electronics, ect. that the ZO6 does.

Bottom line, do you think enough people would go for that? I think they would.

 

I'd just like to take this time, to give Proud the CZ28.com award for the most consistent longest posts.

 

Yes don't forget about the '92 Firehawk (all 25 of them).

I think the point was the 3rd Gens never enjoyed such a clear performance advantage over the Mustang like the '93-'02 cars did. That I think you'd have to agree on.

 

I don't think he's questioning the product Ford is capable of producing, but at what price point they can do it at. A race car in the 60's has little to do with the economics of building a competitively-priced production sports car today, but I can see your overall point. I don't know whether Pacer is right or not, but I think we'll find out in the next few years.

 

Thanks!

 

Understood.

But let's be honest, Ford is able to source engine development in cheaper areas like the Middle East, and Australia (Oz is famous for their 351-C development and recent BOSS and 3V programs on Ford's mod-motors), and they are able to distribute the manufacturing costs globally, just like GM did with the GTO sourcing, and other goods.

As the mod-motor program at Ford matures, these engines keep getting refined with increased HP and lower costs as tooling gets depreciated. I can not argue that a 500hp-spec engine is cheaper for Ford than GM, because I don't have the actual cost data, but I doubt anyone else on this board does either. So to say one cannot do it better than the other is purely speculation IMO. And to continue that assumption to include the whole car is no better an assumption.

 

Guion,

Were you able to find any info on this situation?

 

There goes that "class" word again. It's code for "you may be able to run all over me in performance, but you're still not in my class."

Well friend, Cobra's are currently running over vettes and will continue to do so for the forseeable future

 

I feel you are looking at this telescope from the wrong end.

You are taking the position that GM is limiteing the Corvette, and that's holding Camaro back.

What's really happening is that the Corvette is getting faster by a great deal, while Ford has pulled out the stops, & the SVT Cobra is going for broke (meaning the Corvette). This is competition. One side competes with the other.

At the same time, a car can't target anything until it actually comes out, and everyone can see what the performance numbers really are. Chevy isn't going to know what the GT can actually do till they get their hands on one. The GT40 isn't quite available yet.

Chevy already pulled out the stops with the C6, and a year after it hits the streets, you can expect Ford to bring out a Cobra that's quicker & the GT40 will likely see a big boost as well. The following year, Corvette may come up with something to top the GT, and so on till either one of them calls a truce or the Government, the public, or some other agency reigns them in.

The Cobra will never be quicker than the GT40, The Camaro will never be quicker than the Corvette. Both are in the same showroom, for chrissake!

GT40 is about supercar performance at any cost, Corvette is about performance anyone here (at least with a long term savings plan) have the ability to buy. Meanwhile, Cobra is about offering Corvette topping performance while having 4 seats. Explain how Camaro can fit into all of this without throwing the Chevrolet Motor Division lineup out of wack, and I'm pretty sure you'd get a reccomendation from RP for employment at GM, and the Pope for sainthood.

NOW having said this, I want everyone to step back and look at the types of performance of these cars.

I think everyone here got tunnelvision on acceleration, that everything else has been missed.

Corvette isn't about the quarter mile. It's an all round performance car. Cobras will run with them in acceleration, and may even beat them soon. But Corvette is more a single purpose car. There's no compromises that have to be made for budget V6 buyers. As a result, Cobra will probably never keep up with a Corvette on a racetrack.

This is where the next Camaro can come in. GM does a better job at making a hot handling chassis than Ford does (which if you look at GM's performance history of late, that's exactly what's happening).

This is where Chevrolet Camaro will likely have the edge on the Cobra, and where a trade off between GTO and a Camaro SS would be clear & more historically correct.

Chevrolet has traditionally had the better handling cars at GM. Save Trans Am's WS6 of the 1970s, Pontiacs have rode a bit softer, but accelerated quicker than Chevys, while Chevys have been a tick slower, but have come out with handling marvels. Every Z28 since '82 has been known for it's handling. Chevelle SSs tended to handle noticably better than GTOs, and though the Buick Grand National and '89's Turbo Trans Am would absolutely flatten Camaros (and even automatic Corvettes), TTAs were barely quicker on a course, and GNs were disasters without aftermarket help.

So, while Cobras will run with Corvettes, it's not final if they will out "track" a F5 Camaro.

Remember, in 1997, the base Camaro Z28 was quicker around a course than the C5 Corvette. No.... I'm not making this up.

 

You just keep telling yourself that.