OK...let's piece some things together.

*Chevy is shooting for 500 hp in the C6 Z06's LS7.

*Ford's GT(40), supercharged 5.4 has easily achieved 500 hp. There are rumors that some engineering versions are at 550-580 hp.

*Coletti is on record as saying that this motor will appear in more than just the Ford GT.

*SVT Cobra and SVT Lightning would be good guesses as to where this motor is going.

* A 500hp Cobra will cost a rumored $45-$50K. Maybe more.

* Conventional wisdom pits a 500-550hp Mustang Cobra up against a C6 Z06.

So if GTO must have 500 hp to compete with Cobra...why doesn't Silverado get 500 hp to compete with Lightning? What if SVT pumps up the power to 550?
Will we have a 550 hp GTO? Do I hear 600hp? How much will that cost? $50K? $60K? $70K? Anyone in the market for 70 grand worth of GTO?

The bottom line is that I'm not convinced. I'm not convinced that Corvette will hand over it's premium powerplant to Pontiac. I'm not convinced that Pontiac will...or even should be.....the company to field 500+ hp cars. I'm not convinced that the top GTO will outperform the top Camaro. And when did GTO become Mustang's prime competitor and achieve equal status to Corvette...anyway?

Did I miss the memo on this or something?

Will there be a GTO version to compete with Viper? How will Buick handle the McLaren F1 threat?

 

Is it really "Corvette" to hand over? Probably not.

Corvette didn't "hand over" their chassis to Cadillac, or their top engine, yet lo & behold...


GTO is a competitor to Cobra due to price, configuration, target market, size, purpose, and pretty much everything but the blue oval in the door sills.

Cobra's stated purpose is to offer untouchable performance, and the picture on their wall is the Z06 Corvette. They have the acceleration down, and it will be moving upstream in anticipation of Corvette's move. I doubt handling will keep up due to Corvette's purpose built chassis, which the Mustang (and Camaro) won't have the luxury of.

Now, when someone explains how Chevy will create a Camaro to beat a Cobra, which will run with a Corvette Z06 (coming soon), without outrunning the Corvette Z06, and why the GTO (which is under no such restrictions), shouldn't go after the Cobra, despite Pontiac's performance history (at times, quicker than Chevrolet), and it's likely higher than Camaro price, you'll not only convince me, but you'll probably convince GM as well as being reccomended for sainthood.

Till then, to paraphrase a term I use at work, "You're just blowing air freshener without flushing".

 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "why place limits on the Corvette"? The Corvette should be the fastest (mph), quickest (ET), and best handling production sports car in America. The only limits I see are that the Camaro cannot surpass Corvette. I can accept that.

Agreed, but, I don't see why Corvette should wait for GT. Let Ford be the one that plays catch-up. Corvette should be at the performance pinnacle. Let everyone else (including Cadillac and Pontiac) play second fiddle to the Corvette.

No argument there... I never said that Camaro should be faster than, or even as fast as a Corvette. If you stick the exact same drivetrain in a Camaro and a Corvette, the Corvette will always be faster and out handle the Camaro because it is lighter, more aerodynamic and has a better suspension system.

Cobra is a 2+2 Ponycar. Even with a Supercharger and 500HP there is no way its going to beat the top Corvette. Its still a steel bodied car, and even based on the next gen design, there's no way its more aerodynamic than Corvette. The C6 should be able to thrash the 500HP Cobra with less HP... period... especially when you throw four passengers in the mix. (If that's their only argument.)

Up to now, the argument has been "if" Cobra is after Corvette, and Camaro can't be faster than Corvette, the Camaro won't be in the same league as Cobra. My argument has been, why are we putting limits on the Corvette? Just make the Corvette better and faster. Let the Ford guys play catch-up with the Cobra if they want to try to catch Corvette. Meanwhile GM will be gaining on them with the GTO and Camaro.

Furthermore, I don't want the GTO to be "as fast as" the Corvette either. The Corvette is in a class all its own and should remain there. Again, let me reiterate, based on their design and the fact that the others are steel bodied 2+2 ponycars, even if GM were to take the same powertrain as the Z06 and place it in the topdawg GTO and Camaro, there's no way either car would be able to keep up with the Corvette. If its a "size" issue, heck rate the GTO and Camaro setup has having 5% less horsepower, EVEN IF ITS THE SAME ENGINE. Yes it will make the top GTO and Camaro a little more expensive, but it will also reduce the cost of the Z06 by spreading the cost around.

Its a win-win across the board IMO. I just don't understand why everyone is so dead against the idea, or why everyone is assuming I want a Camaro that is faster than Corvette, especially when I NEVER SAID THAT!

 

All true! But that's assuming that Pontiac carries the same clout at GM as Cadillac. It doesn't.



That's the current Cobra. A 500-550 hp Cobra is a whole 'nuther animal.


Exactly! It will be a slugfest between the 500+hp Cobra and C6 Z06. Camaro and GTO need not apply.



I don't think that GM has any intentions of creating a Camaro (or GTO), to compete directly with a 500+hp Cobra. Just like they have no intention of competing toe to toe with SVT Lightning, or SRT-10.

Sorry about that...I'm usually pretty good about flushing.

 

Once again, in case people are having a hard time following...

DON'T PUT LIMITS ON THE CORVETTE Z06's PERFORMANCE!
Ford wants to try to catch the Z06 with the Cobra? Then it must remain a moving target. Keep making improvements to the Z06 and use that technology to develop Camaro and GTO.

GTO, Camaro AND Cobra are steel bodied 2+2 ponycars. The Corvette is a fiberglass 2 seat sportscar and is lighter, more aerodynamic and has a better handling suspension. If you keep pushing the envelope with the Z06... Cobra will be trying to catch it forever.

Meanwhile, stick the same Z06 drivetrain in the limited edition topdawg GTO and Camaro. Rate it 5% less if you have to (i.e. if the Z06 is 500HP, the GTO and Camaro are 475HP). Given that everything is the same, the GTO and Camaro would never catch the Z06 as by the same "lighter, more aerodynamic and has a better handling suspension" priciples that will keep Cobra off the Z06's back.

Let Ford continue to push the envelope for more HP out of the Cobra in efforts to catch the Corvette. In the mean time, push the Z06 even further and pass that knowledge back along the lines to GM's 2+2 ponycars. They'll never know what hit 'em.

 

Here's where i'm putting my money.

The Ford GT will be lucky to be around for 2 model years. Team Corevette won't worry with overhauling their car thats less than half the retail price, to compete with a ringer. Especially when they won't be that far off (performance-per-dollar).

Camaro won't be faster, off the showroom floor, than GTO, Vette, CTSv or whatever else. But it will be cheaper, performance-per-dollar will be through the roof as compared to the others (a little above GTO, way over Vette, and not even in sight for CTSv). Camaro will likely outsell GTO, CTSv, and Z06, combined.

If some of you want to out accelerate the Cobra of the time, you will have to quit being a pu55y and learn how to work handtools to MAKE your car faster.

When it cmoes to making performance cars, Ford has the cat-bird seat. They can do what they want, to whatever they want, and they don't have to answer to anyone. And hundreds of thousands of people will still choose to put the Mustang in their driveway every year.

JMO

 

The question also has to be asked, if the Cobra does get 500hp and the ZO6 has 500 hp, and assuming that both will end up being priced pretty close(maybe the Cobra a few thou less) who is going to buy the Cobra besides the Ford loyalists? The Corvette is going to be the better car period. The Corvette will also be faster with it's power due to the superior nature of the car. Who is going to buy that Mustang? Now that i think about it, probably the same damn people that spend 55-70k on Saleens and Rousches that aren't that outstanding in performance. The only thing I can think of is the whole 2+2 thing but if you can afford a car like that, then you most likely have another one as well.

 

Yes, but that's not the most important thing to me when you have a car that out-looks, out-handles, out-brakes, etc., the other car marginally.

 

 

Well i really wouldn't want a mustang to be faster then the Camaro. But i honestly feel that the Cobra(even though it is in the same body) isn't really a mustang. If it wants to chase the Corvette, let it. I don't think that Camaro should try to keep up with it. If you do that then you are gonna have some huge hp jumps in a matter of a couple of years. We are already gonna see some huge hp jumps by 2007. There has to be a limit. As long as the Camaro is faster then the rest of the Stangs, let the Cobra beat it. I know for a fact that GM will not let the Cobra beat the top Corvette. So the Cobra will be chasing the vette for a very long time. At least it will if the cobra stays in its current state.

 

No, Cobra's stated purpose is not to offer untouchable performance.

Folks may say things along those lines, but nobody wants a $50,000 Mustang.


Get Saint Peter on the line... I'm ready for my halo.

1) Cobra cannot approach a $50,000 price point and move enough cars to make it worth it. Then Ford is competing with Corvette, and Corvette has laid the smack down on all comers for 50 years. Mustang wants to be next?

2) Corvette + GTO + CTSv + Camaro + SSR + SS Truck + Holden = a lot more engines and transmissions than just the volume of the Cobra. The costs get distributed better and economy of scale works in the favor of GM, especially due to the commonality with the trucks.

3) GTO and Camaro's price points are not going to be driven higher because of the powertrains. They'll go up because of equipment, and because more power = more options and fluffy stuff = more $$$$.

4) The Cobra's current engine and transmission are highly problematic since they are SINGLE USE. Ford can improve this a little with sharing volumes with the Lightning (the GT doesn't even register), but they can't mirror the huge volumes GMT-800/900 can throw at the problem. There are no other Ford performance cars to share volume. GM has at LEAST 4 on the way, and probably more. I'll bet there are more LSx family motors built every year than any other program in North America, and this will continue to the Gen IV.

5) The GTO buyer will be willing to pay for more than a Camaro buyer... at least in general. The GTO buyer group has a smaller percentage of folks that want to hunt down Mustangs for giggles. They'll end up sharing powertrains across both.

 

Why do you feel that it's not a M*stang??

I agree though, GM will never ever let a M*stang beat out their best Corvette and the C6 is gonna make doubters look really stupid. The Camaros purpose (not the Corvettes) is to best the M*stang in all or most areas of performance and Chevrolet is maybe more capable now then ever to do it.

 

Let's take the horsepower numbers out of the equation.

Corvette is released with X performance. Then Cobra comes out with the same X performance.

If the Camaro can't beat the Corvette, due to GM's unspoken law of "nothing beats the Corvette, how could the Camaro beat the Cobra if the Corvette and Cobra are equal?

I can see the point that some of you are making. "Don't let the Cobra ever beat the Vette. Keep pushing the Vette upwards".
OK. I agree. No Mustang should ever beat the Vette.
But at some point, it would become madness. At what point would the companies say enough is enough?
At what point would Vette buyers say "ya know, I love the Vette, but it's just gotten too expensive."

Because that's what would happen. Power goes up, so does price. Corvettes would become too expensive.

And if the Vette and Cobra are equal in performance, and then you take the Vette engine and put it in the Camaro (as some of you suggest), the performance of the Camaro will be a bit less than the Vette (for the reasons some of you listed), and therefore, less than the Cobra.

 

For the Cobra to have the same X performance like the Vette, it will have to have X+Y horsepower to equal the Vette's X performance. That means that to equal the Corvette performance the Cobra will need to have a sizable lead in hp. It is for this reason that I think the Corvette will not really be threatened, especially the ZO6. The Cobra will have to have at least 550 to equal the Vettes 500 and will Ford do that? Can Ford do that? Can Ford do that at a price that people will pay? I sure have my doubts.

To answer your question about "at what point would the companies say enough is enough".................the whole trick is to make the other guy do say "enough" first and I think.....no I KNOW the Corvette will not loose this one. It could get to a point where the Cobra is limited by the GT and you would have the same pitfalls as the Camaro and Corvette have.

I think a big problem here is that there are too many unknown variables:C6 weight, final ratings, ZO6 ratings/weight, anything concrete on the new Camaro, and the same for the Cobra, and to top it off, pricing for all of them. That is a lot of stuff and that is not even throwing the GTO into the equation. I think the biggest unknown is the Cobras power and price. That will provide a lot of answers.

 

TA- DA......WE HAVE A WINNA!!!!!!