i thought this thread was about the nissan titan not nissan buisness practices isnt that like 5 threads down

 

The arguement has spread to this thread and the GM sales thread. Heated arguements do that.

 

yess it true it started in here becuase robert tried to use it as justification that the titan was a better truck then the sierra and sliverado

 

It ain't that heated.

He's wrong, end of story.

 

I’m not sure why the issue of Nissan’s profitability is causing such consternation; and in some cases, some outright, obvious hatred….is just is what it is.

For the record, I did not say that the Titan was a better truck than the Silverado because Nissan is more profitable than GM or anything along those lines - the “issue” was only an issue because some were dismissing the Titan because it doesn't have a lot of configurations and I was explaining why Nissan didn’t start out in (for them), a totally new market, offering a multitude of cab/box/engine/transmission configurations in the Titan – that doing so would have been a strategically and financially stupid move.

In support of that, I mentioned Nissan’s significant profitability for the past two years (the inference being that you can’t do stupid things and be profitable and that Nissan wasn’t doing stupid things). A couple of posts later, I was then challenged to prove my statement about Nissan’s profitability which I did (in this case, citing the Money/CNN article although similar stories can be found on Morningstar, the WSJ, Forbs, Fortune, etc.).

Those of you citing other numbers such as revenues, or total profit $$$ earned, etc can do so all you like but such citations, even when correct, do not change the correctness of my original statement or of the Money/CNN article which says…

“Nissan maintained an operating margin of 10% for the year. That means that before taxes, Nissan makes 10 cents in profit for every $1 in sales. That number is currently the highest in the automobile industry, even beating its other Japanese competitors. Toyota Motor Corp.'s (7203.TO) profit margins are currently roughly 9% while Honda Motor Co. (7267.TO) weighs in at just under 8%.” http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/25/news..._international .

The article’s language is very plain and shouldn't be difficult to understand. While I can understand that some don’t like what it says; to just say it “isn’t true” or "it doesn't really mean what it says it means" or "I'm going to quote some other figures that will make me feel better" is intellectually dishonest (and also not very nice).

Now, children, I’m through with this thread…have a nice evening.

 

Does anyone have any pie charts they would like to post?

 

yes your saying that nissan makes more money for every dollar they spend. but toyota makes more money at the end of the year. its like the statment i made earlier . your corvette makes more horse power then my honda but my honda makes more hp per litter. who cares at the end of the day the corvette still wins the race and toyota still made more money then nissan.

 

No the article stated it just fine and dandy... you did not.

The article said "an operating margin of 10%", you said just said "profit" and later "profitability". Do I really care enough to call you out on that? Normally, no, but you started lecturing like you were some sort of damn economics professor.

What I don't think anyone here gets is why you feel profit margin is more important than actual profit? If I setup a lemonade stand and produce $200 in sales with a $20 cost, my ROI is HUGE, but that doesn't mean I'm going to quit the restaurant business if I can get a restaurant to pull in $3000/day with $1500 in costs. The lemonade stand is 5 times the ROI, while the restaurant is pulling in 10 times the actual PROFIT. Which would you rather have in your pocket? $150 or $1500?

Children? Does talking like that really help you come off any better? I would fault you for it but you're probably only doing it because Pacer talks like that all the time when he's feeling cocky (which is most of the time).

Nissan's quality has also gone down the tubes in a hurry since the 2002 model year - right about the time they started making an impressive profit margin per vehicle. Gee, I wonder how you make more money without raising prices? Oh, yeah, you make your cars more cheaply.

 

It's not a matter of "who cares', it's a matter of what is being measured - who wins a "race" is a measurement of who wins a race; who's engine generates more horse power/liter is a measurement of who's engine generates more horsepower/liter; one measurement doesn't make the other invalid or unimportant.

Toyota is a significantly larger company than Nissan and sells many more vehicles in total so it had better "make more money" than Nissan but that's missing the point and missing what I've been saying.

Dismissing Nissan because Toyota made more total profit$ is no different than dismissing a half-ton pickup because it doesn't have as good a payload/towing capacity as a one ton pickup; the fact that the ton pickup can haul/tow more doesn't make the half-ton any less suited for the job it was designed for/capable of.

 

As far as your lemonaid stand/restaurant goes of course I'd rather have the $1,500 but that's never been my point and if someone thought it was my point then either they've misunderstood or I've not stated it very well.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not said that profit margin or profitability is "more important" than profit; in fact BOTH are important and to try to dismiss one is a fool's pursuit. What I have maintained, perhaps not as well as I'd like, is that they not the same thing and they are not. Those who don't like Nissan or simply don't want to give any ground where there views are concerned obviously want to raise the issue of profit $ so that they can justify dismissing Nissan's profitability.

I have looked through this thread and cannot find where I said Nissan made more profit or used the word incorrectly; if you can cite a specific instance please do so. The word profit has been bandied about a lot by others but I don't believe I have. If I have or have used the word inapproptiately then tell me where exactly and I'll be happy to correct myself.

 

the point of a drag race is who wins its irelevent the amount of power per a litter you make. you own a buisness to make money well i think you get the point.

is it neat the honda puts out more power per litter yes,is it neat nissan makes more per a dollar yes. besides that what good is it.


so wait if i buy a nissan and there making more off the same car comparable to toyota does that mean there ripping me off

 

i like pie.

 

Not flaming you or bashing you - don't take me the wrong way.

You state that "you have, many many times..."
Yet we look in your sig, and I see none.
What you bought 10 or 20 years ago is NOT helping the company today.

I have stated many times that even if American products were inferior (which I think they used to be, but on average are not any more), I would continue to buy American and force the producer to make the product right.
How?

1) Buy the closest thing they offer to what you want, and fill out the questionaire honestly... Do I want a V8 - YES. Do I want more cargo room? - NO. Do I want more cup holders - NO. Etc, Etc. This gives their marketing and design groups substantive data to go to the boards with, and you have voted with your wallet. They DO take you seriously when you are buying their stuff.
2) If the new unit has a bug, a rattle, a missing part, or anything wrong with it - GET IT FIXED. In a polite and warm way - irritate the dealer service department to death. Fill out the repair surveys, and get them to the manufacturer. Forcing them to make things right will make things better. Even at the level of 3rd-party surveys and studies like JD Power does, manufacturers don't want to be at the top of the "complaints/100 cars" list, or at the bottom of "customer satisfaction" lists.
3) Insist on getting and giving feedback from the customer service group of the manufacturer... not the dealership, but the manufacturer. Get into their focus groups and participate in their design studies.

There are many more ways to be actively involved in a company's operations and products.
Simply "not buying their product" is a sure-fire way to get your message accross, but it's also throwing the baby out with the bathwater IMO. You are not making them improve their product by not buying it, you are putting them out of business. If their product is so bad you can't live with it - by all means you should buy something else. Likewise with service - if they treat you like a turd, leave them... that kind of dealer NEEDS to be out of business IMO.

Buying anything is a two-edged sword.
1) There is the value (percieved or tangible) that the buyer gets for their money... i.e. the item, service, or good that they exchanged money for.
2) Then there is the other side - "the investment" where the money goes after it leaves the buyer's hand.
Everyone knows about item 1, but almost NOBODY cares about item 2. Well, item 2 is just as significant as item 1 - at least it is to me. I will often make concessions on item 1 to improve on item 2.
Example... would I buy a stereo (new in a box) for $100 from a crack-dealing thief that probably stole 50 stereos from a local business 2 days earlier, or would I go to a reputable store and buy the same stereo for $179?
To me, this is a no-brainer because of the background information given.
The same scenario would apply to a car purchase as well... do I spend $15k and buy a 2-dr coupe from a reputable US firm that is basically the engine of American industry, or do I spend $12k and buy an equivalent coupe from a company that pollutes in other countries, exposes other people to unsafe work environments, refuses to offer American workers the same level of pay/benefits that other companies do, and invests their profits in more offshore facilities? At face value, $12k is better than $15k, and THAT is where most consumers stop thinking and start signing on dotted lines.

I don't blame you for anything, but you can't come onto a board like this and proclaim to be a pro-GM person, or even a pro-American person when your driveway is full of imports, and your monthly payments are going to Japan.
REGARDLESS of who you work for, your money is NOT going towards helping the US carmakers "survive" as you have indicated you would like to see.
So, simply put, your actions don't match your words.
Sorry.

 

Don't laugh... Ross Perot could resolve this issue on 3 overheads.

Maybe he should be the next CEO of GM or Ford...

PS - At the risk of minimal embarrassment, I admit that I actually voted for that guy. At the time, I was young and worried about the national debt, the Social Security program, and our out-of-control spending. I wanted to give him just 4 years to see if he could get it all under control. I fugured the House and Senate wouldn't let him screw defense or foreign policy up too bad in just 4 years. All said, Ross was an incredible businessman, and even today I am still hearing that sucking sound he said was coming.
(If you don't know about "the sucking sound"... you are too young, don't ask.)

 

Proud,

This thread simply started out when the OP posted the Titan’s ’07 horsepower and torque figures.

It shifted into a “my truck can beat up your truck” argument about payload and towing capacity and what configuration of Chevy should be used to compare to the Titan (of course, only the configurations of Chevy that wins the comparison) and whether those figures even matter to most of the half-ton pickup truck market. That turned into arguing about Nissan’s profitability.

Now you apparently want to turn this into a discussion about me - about my patriotism or whether I should be posting here; implying that if I don’t currently own a GM product my opinion doesn’t matter. On top of that you are flirting with the old “buy American/“where the money goes” argument which has been and still is a specious argument.

Well, let me say this about that…

First, my “payments” don’t “go to Japan”…I’m not stupid enough to “do” payments; if I can’t pay cash for what I want that means I can’t afford it and that means I don’t buy it.

Patriotism isn’t measurable by what nameplates are in a person’s driveway - that kind of patriotism claim is often made by people who take their “American” Chevy truck (with a significant parts content that is not from North America) and go to Wal-Mart and fill up the bed with stuff made in China all the while flying a full-sized American flag from the bed of the truck. That kind of patriotism makes for a good photo-op bit lacks substance. If that is as deep as patriotism goes for people these days then this country will not survive for much longer.

One more comment about the whole “buy American” and “where the money goes” bovine scatology argument - when I had about 180K miles on my 1993 F150 (the very poster child vehicle to represent ice cream, apple pie and “American” trucks) the transmission went out; guess where the replacement had to come from? Japan.

I didn’t just “come onto a board like this” - I’ve been a member of this board for quite a while (longer than many of my critics as a matter of fact)…I’ve owned many, many “Detroit” products; most of them GM…my signature only includes the F-Bodies (which seems appropriate for an F-Body board) and is hardly representative of all I’ve owned in my lifetime. To list them all would fill a page with a signature.

What anybody owns or has owned is a red hearing anyway and I think you know that…last time I looked, the TOS of this board didn’t require members to ever have even owned a vehicle at all much less be a current owner of a GM product and that’s a good thing for some people too - I’ve noticed that many of those screaming the most against my arguments or against me personally, either don’t currently own a GM product or own models that are several or many years old. And oh my…some even own a “ricer” or two.

Why do those who own two or three or ten year old GM products or ricer products get a pass and I don’t? Tell me how, if I still owned my ’73 Formula 400 and my ’74 Cutlass and my ’75 Cutlass and my “76 TransAm and my ’79 TransAm and my ’00 Z28 (to name just a few), that would help GM today? Tell me how owning a ’95 Camaro or even an ’03 Impala helps GM today? Could it be they get a pass because they tow the GM line and I don’t? I think the answer is pretty apparent.

Let’s talk for a moment about those companies that “refuses to offer American workers the same level of pay/benefits that other companies do”. Such a statement makes for a good union talking point but what exactly is your proof for such a claim?

Perhaps a better question is why has the UAW been so overwhelmingly unsuccessful in organizing the import’s manufacturing plants? Could it be that it’s because the union has nothing substantive to offer…could it be the “American workers” you are worried about are happy with their pay and benefits and working conditions and how they are treated?

Do you think for one moment that if GM or Ford or Chrysler could shed itself of its UAW workers it would hesitate to do so?

Maybe here is yet a better question; would all the critics feel “better” about the Titan if it were made by UAW workers instead of non UAW members?

Here is my opinion about buying a GM vehicle - when GM makes a vehicle I want to buy for a price I’m willing to pay I will buy a GM vehicle again; if they don’t I won’t and when that day comes, it won’t matter who I work for.

If you think I can’t be a “GM guy” or that my "actions don’t match my words” with that attitude you are free to that opinion but I’m not going to give GM or anyone else tens of thousands of my dollars just so that I get to fill out a questionnaire or so that I can become a thorn in the side of my dealer’s service manager in hopes that my feedback gets back to the General and that somebody actually does something about it. Nor will I do so to win the approval of certain members of CamaroZ28.com.