Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
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From: Nashville, TN
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Agreed w/Darth 100%, and I'll add that I'd argue the vast majority of 305 TBI Rally Sport buyers from 88-92 were NOT "enthusiasts"
The mild V8/base car package SPECIFICALLY targets NON-enthusiasts who like a throaty V8 rumble and the idea, the concept of a V8, even if it in reality and function is no better than a V6.
I also say a low hp LSx motor would be cheaper than a multicam VVT HFV6 anyway, and probably lighter and physically smaller too.
The mild V8/base car package SPECIFICALLY targets NON-enthusiasts who like a throaty V8 rumble and the idea, the concept of a V8, even if it in reality and function is no better than a V6.
I also say a low hp LSx motor would be cheaper than a multicam VVT HFV6 anyway, and probably lighter and physically smaller too.
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From: Houston
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
A few counter points:
1) The 4th Gen didn't offer 1 V6 and 3 V8s... it offered 1 V6 and 1 V8. The SS package offered some nice features over the Z28 package... but the engine was the same. Even if you want to count it as 2 V8's... it's still only 1 V6 and 2 V8's.
1) The 4th Gen didn't offer 1 V6 and 3 V8s... it offered 1 V6 and 1 V8. The SS package offered some nice features over the Z28 package... but the engine was the same. Even if you want to count it as 2 V8's... it's still only 1 V6 and 2 V8's.
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
2) V8 engines are the hot thing right now. They are selling. It's been reported that V8 sales have been abosultely unaffcted by the current fuel pricing. They are what the buzz is about. Look at the Hemi's. Look at the LSx's, etc. Look at the buzz around the Impala SS with the V8... vs the total NON BUZZ of last years supercharged V6 Impala SS!!!
I still don’t see anyone jumping up and down right now saying give me the lowest powered V8….A hi-po will bring so many more sales then a low powered V8….
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
3) If this were not a Camaro (ie. muscle car), I might tend to agree a little more... but, again, this car is all about the V8. That and the 2 door configuration and RWD are probably the 3 most essential components to the DNA of this car.
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
4) Yes, the base model V6 is important... I don't think anyone will argue that, BUT.. the point is... I think what the people who say that an optional V8 is a better idea than an option V6 is that people would be more willing to pay to upgrade to an optional V8 than they would be to upgrade to a different V6 for roughly the same money.
5) Fuel Efficiency is a totally dead issue in this. The DOD 5.3 V8 in the Impala SS gets 1 MPG BETTER in boht city and highway driving than the 3.9 V6 in the Impala LTZ.
I don't think any of this is being "close minded" at all... IMO, it's a more realistic view of the car and it's segment.
5) Fuel Efficiency is a totally dead issue in this. The DOD 5.3 V8 in the Impala SS gets 1 MPG BETTER in boht city and highway driving than the 3.9 V6 in the Impala LTZ.
I don't think any of this is being "close minded" at all... IMO, it's a more realistic view of the car and it's segment.
I’m starting to think, that maybe we should just agree to disagree and wait and see what happens…..We are both stubborn in our opposite views and all we can do is go back and forth with no real ending….
With what you posted right above….I just don’t really agree with you…
Another thing, I don’t mean to be a ********….I just feel very passionate against this….I guess I finally fell on one side of the fence….I don’t mean to insult anyone here….**** off maybe, but I cant help that
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From: Houston
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
Agreed w/Darth 100%, and I'll add that I'd argue the vast majority of 305 TBI Rally Sport buyers from 88-92 were NOT "enthusiasts"
The mild V8/base car package SPECIFICALLY targets NON-enthusiasts who like a throaty V8 rumble and the idea, the concept of a V8, even if it in reality and function is no better than a V6.
I also say a low hp LSx motor would be cheaper than a multicam VVT HFV6 anyway, and probably lighter and physically smaller too.
The mild V8/base car package SPECIFICALLY targets NON-enthusiasts who like a throaty V8 rumble and the idea, the concept of a V8, even if it in reality and function is no better than a V6.
I also say a low hp LSx motor would be cheaper than a multicam VVT HFV6 anyway, and probably lighter and physically smaller too.
But my main point here is…
That will be NEARLY 25 YEARS AGO when the 5ht gen goes into full production….
Not to mention the 5th gen will have to be appealing for a production run of about 5 years.
Should we really base our business case on what buyers did 30 years ago?
I mean think about all the things that have changed since the mid 80’s in the auto industry….its mind boggling!
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From: Sarasota FL
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Gas mileage perception changes the minute they walk onto the lot and read the EPA estimates on the sticker. And if GM advertised "our 5.3 V8 gets 33 MPG highway," then the perception would be even easier to overcome. Do you have any idea how many people walk on my lot and assume the Hemi is a gas hog and the 4.7 isn't?
Did you know the Hemi gets 1 MPG BETTER in both city and highway than a comparable 4.7? End of story...the customer walks off happy. No one is going to tell me (or many of us) that a 300+hp V6 in place of a 300+hp available V8 in a base car is a bright idea.
It isn't...and I would hope the crew at GM would have the intellect to see that's the case. LX 5.0 Mustangs and TBI RSs sold BECAUSE THEY WERE CHEAP V8s. Mustang GTs sell now BECAUSE ITS A RELATIVELY CHEAP V8. Offer the same or better, or don't even bother this time around...
Did you know the Hemi gets 1 MPG BETTER in both city and highway than a comparable 4.7? End of story...the customer walks off happy. No one is going to tell me (or many of us) that a 300+hp V6 in place of a 300+hp available V8 in a base car is a bright idea.
It isn't...and I would hope the crew at GM would have the intellect to see that's the case. LX 5.0 Mustangs and TBI RSs sold BECAUSE THEY WERE CHEAP V8s. Mustang GTs sell now BECAUSE ITS A RELATIVELY CHEAP V8. Offer the same or better, or don't even bother this time around...
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From: Houston
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
I feel like I’m repeating myself and I just don’t see eye to eye with y’all…..So I’m just going to agree to disagree….I’ll admit I was wrong or not after the first few years of sales….
Who knows maybe we will see 5 engines………..
Who knows maybe we will see 5 engines………..
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From: Ohio
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Originally Posted by stars1010
So is fuel cost…and while we all know V8s can get great gas mileage…..the average person doesn’t know this…its all about public perception…We can have a our cake and eat it too with this line up. If you want a V8 you have two to choose from….
I still don’t see anyone jumping up and down right now saying give me the lowest powered V8….A hi-po will bring so many more sales then a low powered V8….
) I have never, ever heard some one enthusiastically ask "Hey! Does that car have a hi-po V6?!?!" Quite the contrary... when you tell them it has a V6 the reponse is a let-down "oh..."
Will 420 hp and 500 plus hp V8s car not satisfy this? Again we can have our cake and so can other demographics…More sales are good! I really feel it’s that simple.
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From: Westmont, IL
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
I see where Stars1010 is coming from, and if this car were a Monte Carlo or some other car that wasnt so rooted in Pony/Muscle car tradition, then I would be advocating the same thing as well.
But as Darth mentions, people know what kind of car a Camaro is, and always ask what kind of engine it has, and if the response back is a V6, there is always a let down from the question asker, then an attempt at validation for the V6 by the car owner. The MAJORITY of people who look at a Camaro know its supposed to have a V8 in it, and offereing 2 V6's and thus making the price jump to a V8 a big one, doesnt mesh well with this.
And if gas mileage is the argument, then advertising, advertising, and more advertising of the fact that the LS4(or equivalent engine) gets better MPG than Mustangs V6 or whatever the case may be. Therefore, I am a STRONG advocate for a strong base V6, then a base V8 in the 325-350hp range, then the 6.2, then the uber 6.2.
But as Darth mentions, people know what kind of car a Camaro is, and always ask what kind of engine it has, and if the response back is a V6, there is always a let down from the question asker, then an attempt at validation for the V6 by the car owner. The MAJORITY of people who look at a Camaro know its supposed to have a V8 in it, and offereing 2 V6's and thus making the price jump to a V8 a big one, doesnt mesh well with this.
And if gas mileage is the argument, then advertising, advertising, and more advertising of the fact that the LS4(or equivalent engine) gets better MPG than Mustangs V6 or whatever the case may be. Therefore, I am a STRONG advocate for a strong base V6, then a base V8 in the 325-350hp range, then the 6.2, then the uber 6.2.
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From: Ohio
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
For reference, I dug up the article on the popularity of V8 engines despite high fuel pricing:
From CNN Money:
(Link: http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/25/Auto...n=money_latest)
From CNN Money:
(Link: http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/25/Auto...n=money_latest)
Originally Posted by CNN Money:
Big engines stay popular despite gas spike
Popularity of V-8 engines stayed steady in the first three months of the year, despite rising gas prices.
April 25, 2006: 12:36 PM EDT
DETROIT (Reuters) - U.S. consumers bought vehicles with big, gas-guzzling engines at an unchanged rate in the first three months of the year despite rising gas prices, according to a survey released on Monday.
In the first quarter, about 25 percent of all new vehicles sold in the United States were equipped with eight- cylinder engines, according to sales trends analyzed by the Power Information Network, a data tracking service of consulting firm J.D. Power and Associates.
That market share level for V8s -- typically the most powerful engines used in trucks and large sport utility vehicles -- was unchanged from the average of 25 percent in the fourth quarter, according to the Power Information Network.
The market share of six- and four-cylinder engine-vehicles have also not budged in the face of higher gasoline prices, now above $3 per gallon in many U.S. markets, J.D. Power said.
Six-cylinder engines represented just over 40 percent of new-vehicle sales over the past nine months, while four- cylinder engines have accounted for just over 30 percent, the firm said.
If that trend holds, it would be good news for General Motors Corp., which has staked its product strategy this year to the launch of a new line of SUVs, including the Tahoe and the Yukon, which run on V8 engines.
"So far, the perceived gas price increases have not had any discernible impact on new-vehicle buying patterns, at least with regard to the size of the engine," said Tom Libby, an industry analyst at the Power Information Network.
Despite fears of a consumer backlash against SUVs in the face of higher oil prices, few analysts expect U.S. drivers will defect in large numbers to smaller cars featuring four- cylinder engines this year.
Rather, most forecast gains for cross-over utility vehicles, which are built on car platforms, and even luxury sedans at the expense of the SUV market.
Those marginal shifts in demand are widely tracked since the overall U.S. auto market is expected to be flat at best this year at just under 17 million vehicles sold.
"Gas prices are certainly becoming a popular dinner and water cooler discussion topic, but consumers appear to be conditioned to prices at current levels," said Jeff Schuster, executive director of global forecasting at J.D. Power.
Popularity of V-8 engines stayed steady in the first three months of the year, despite rising gas prices.
April 25, 2006: 12:36 PM EDT
DETROIT (Reuters) - U.S. consumers bought vehicles with big, gas-guzzling engines at an unchanged rate in the first three months of the year despite rising gas prices, according to a survey released on Monday.
In the first quarter, about 25 percent of all new vehicles sold in the United States were equipped with eight- cylinder engines, according to sales trends analyzed by the Power Information Network, a data tracking service of consulting firm J.D. Power and Associates.
That market share level for V8s -- typically the most powerful engines used in trucks and large sport utility vehicles -- was unchanged from the average of 25 percent in the fourth quarter, according to the Power Information Network.
The market share of six- and four-cylinder engine-vehicles have also not budged in the face of higher gasoline prices, now above $3 per gallon in many U.S. markets, J.D. Power said.
Six-cylinder engines represented just over 40 percent of new-vehicle sales over the past nine months, while four- cylinder engines have accounted for just over 30 percent, the firm said.
If that trend holds, it would be good news for General Motors Corp., which has staked its product strategy this year to the launch of a new line of SUVs, including the Tahoe and the Yukon, which run on V8 engines.
"So far, the perceived gas price increases have not had any discernible impact on new-vehicle buying patterns, at least with regard to the size of the engine," said Tom Libby, an industry analyst at the Power Information Network.
Despite fears of a consumer backlash against SUVs in the face of higher oil prices, few analysts expect U.S. drivers will defect in large numbers to smaller cars featuring four- cylinder engines this year.
Rather, most forecast gains for cross-over utility vehicles, which are built on car platforms, and even luxury sedans at the expense of the SUV market.
Those marginal shifts in demand are widely tracked since the overall U.S. auto market is expected to be flat at best this year at just under 17 million vehicles sold.
"Gas prices are certainly becoming a popular dinner and water cooler discussion topic, but consumers appear to be conditioned to prices at current levels," said Jeff Schuster, executive director of global forecasting at J.D. Power.
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From: Nashville, TN
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Originally Posted by stars1010
I see what you’re saying….I’m not dumb, I totally understand this…
But my main point here is…
That will be NEARLY 25 YEARS AGO when the 5ht gen goes into full production….
But my main point here is…
That will be NEARLY 25 YEARS AGO when the 5ht gen goes into full production….
You know if you want to open the can of worms that is "camaro must evolve to survive" then we can open the can about how the ergonomics and ingress/egress and hoodline/site visibility are going to be barely better than the 4th gen, if any, and a whole host of other things that make this car great to look at but do nothing from a design standpoint to evolve the car to make it's appeal broader.
What we do have is Mustang V8 sales data that is CURRENT that shows modestly priced and MODESTLY POWERED v8 GT's flying off lots everywhere.
I need to restate what Scott himself said several times, is that high 4th gen HP levels scared off a lot of Women buyers. We have to assume the V6 car didn't appeal to them because V6 sales stunk. Why would that be if nobody sees any diff. between a HFv6 and a modest V8? Who's to say a hi-po V6 will fare any better? Is somebody in the market for a V6 really going to make a decision to buy a Camaro because the base V6 isn't enough HP for them?
I'll go out on a limb and make a generalization I believe to be true: V8 buyers DO NOT cross shop V6s.
Part of the base-v8 concept is that it is not a "performance model" per se, so some of the tire-shredding rip snorting persona will be dulled down so that non-enthusiasts and females would not be turned off.
Consumers like choices. Give them what they want or they will go elsewhere. Remember we are not competing for the die-hards....GM already has us. We are competing for the average buyers, the people that really do comparison shop, test drive multiple models and make decisions on things like price and V8 s. V6.
Last edited by Chris 96 WS6; May 1, 2006 at 03:55 PM.
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From: Nashville, TN
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
But, I HAVE heard a lot of people that simply want a V8. Sometimes the power isn't even a factor. I have heard countless times "That car have a V8?" ("That thing got a Hemi" sound familiar? ) I have never, ever heard some one enthusiastically ask "Hey! Does that car have a hi-po V6?!?!" Quite the contrary... when you tell them it has a V6 the reponse is a let-down "oh..."
) I have never, ever heard some one enthusiastically ask "Hey! Does that car have a hi-po V6?!?!" Quite the contrary... when you tell them it has a V6 the reponse is a let-down "oh..."
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From: manassas, VA
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Originally Posted by stars1010
I see what you’re saying….I’m not dumb, I totally understand this…
But my main point here is…
That will be NEARLY 25 YEARS AGO when the 5ht gen goes into full production….
Not to mention the 5th gen will have to be appealing for a production run of about 5 years.
Should we really base our business case on what buyers did 30 years ago?
I mean think about all the things that have changed since the mid 80’s in the auto industry….its mind boggling!
But my main point here is…
That will be NEARLY 25 YEARS AGO when the 5ht gen goes into full production….
Not to mention the 5th gen will have to be appealing for a production run of about 5 years.
Should we really base our business case on what buyers did 30 years ago?
I mean think about all the things that have changed since the mid 80’s in the auto industry….its mind boggling!
To me that data screams just as loudly as the thirdgen's run that cheap relatively low output V8s are great successful options in pony cars.
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From: Nashville, TN
Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Originally Posted by notgetleft
How about we just look at say, 2 years ago. Ford had 4 engines in the mustang. The mach 1 and the cobra sold pitifully compared to the base GT and V6 cars.
To me that data screams just as loudly as the thirdgen's run that cheap relatively low output V8s are great successful options in pony cars.
To me that data screams just as loudly as the thirdgen's run that cheap relatively low output V8s are great successful options in pony cars.
I would say back to Guy, who asked why the SS was so much more popular than the Z: Well, if the Z had any character rather than looking like a base car perhaps they would have sold better. At least it was available. And since the Z was a performance model, its not apples to apples. Give us a "base" non-performance model with a V8 and without the stiffer suspension, etc. etc. and see how well it sells.
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Re: Mustang vs Camaro, Challenger vs GTO, & other latest info
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
The only conclusion some of us can come up with as to why a mid-v8 "won't work" is they are afraid it will cannibalize SS/Z28 sales.
I would say back to Guy, who asked why the SS was so much more popular than the Z: Well, if the Z had any character rather than looking like a base car perhaps they would have sold better. At least it was available. And since the Z was a performance model, its not apples to apples. Give us a "base" non-performance model with a V8 and without the stiffer suspension, etc. etc. and see how well it sells.
I would say back to Guy, who asked why the SS was so much more popular than the Z: Well, if the Z had any character rather than looking like a base car perhaps they would have sold better. At least it was available. And since the Z was a performance model, its not apples to apples. Give us a "base" non-performance model with a V8 and without the stiffer suspension, etc. etc. and see how well it sells.