Should the LS2 find it's way into the future GTO one might consider waiting for that.

It's as strong or stronger an engine than the LS6 with a couple of caveats. The cam lift is @ .525 as opposed to the slightly more radical LS6's .550. The redline is at the same points as the LS6 as the heads and valvetrain are the same. Power.. maybe better said, torque under the curve is sweet. Only at the top end do you see the LS6 getting an edge in absolutes. Under the curve is where the LS2 rocks. Where the weight of the GTO stands torque will be most noticed over a peak number that makes more sense in the lighter Y-body.

The present Monaro based GTO is something I am quite glad made it over here. I pitched Caddy that this was the "Catera" they should put up against BMW. Had the CTS not been in the pipe I would have been right.

Give a GTO the LS2 the T56 ratio'ed like the Z06 and a 3:73 rear gear and you have a winner that shuts the scoop and whoop folks right up. Give it DOD and bye-bye guzzler tax. There's a bottom line dropper right there.

It all take time, and the General is coming. I have driven the GTO and the 300c and for me there is too much subtle on the + side for the GTO that gives it the edge from a performance standpoint.
I believe that the differences in the future will only prove to be more marked.

GM is on a crusade for better and better quality, beyond the short term, as it's what matters the most in the real scheme. I have faith in Wagoner, Cowger, Lutz, and on and on. GM performance car is working diligently to make it clear that performance matters at GM, and for more folks than those that have abundant economic resources.

I won't try to hoodoo anyone. I do firmly believe we do care about folks that wanttt a smile when they mash the go pedal and turn the wheel. We will earn your business.

If GM looks to be slow, consider that value has a prime spot and absolute quality is what is wanted as well.

If GM lets you down you will leave us. I and others do not want to see that happen.

The only way we can stop that is to give you what you want at a price you feel is a "deal".

 

I think that Pontiac may have miscalculated alittle with the GTO.

They figured if they can just lay their hands on a V8, RWD 2 door sedan....and call it GTO....they'd have carte blanche to price it anyway they want.

The GTO is aimed at people like me. But there is no chance that I would spend $33, $34, $35, $36, $37, $38,000 or more for that car.

I'm glad GTO is here. I'm glad they called it GTO. But like I said before...when I see GTO, I see a $27,000 car. By September, I have no doubt that you'll be able to get them for that.

 

27 is low. I see the Z28 at 27... not the GTO. I see at least 29k. How a GTO that comes standard with more stuff then a loaded SS, can be seen as a cheaper car then the SS? If in your eyes the GTO is a 27k car, the Camaro and Firebird must be a good 20k.

 

Do you think that the SS was a good value? Because I thought it was a rip-off. The GTO is a better car than the Camaro SS....but I think 27K is a fair, out the door price for it.

In the next few months, you're going to see '05 Mustang GT's, with similar performance as GTO, similar options, fresh styling (like it or not), going for $25K.

That's the car GTO will be compared to.....not a $48,000 M3 (as Pontiac had hoped).

 

I'm glad the car made it over as well. I actually drove a Monaro back in 2000, and had use of an LS1 Commodore for a week back in '99, and I've been a Holden fan ever since. The cars are extremely durable, and IMO if they can hold up to the abuse in that country, the cars should last darn near forever on my smooth freeway runs. That's the big reason I'm willing to pay up to 32K for them. I'll be keeping it for a long while.

BTW: Did you or anyone notice the GTO gets 29 mpg on the highway.... without displacement on demand?

Kind of makes you wonder what 25 mpg Hemi powered 300Cs would be running without DOD.

 

well, considering the auto version of the GTO gets 21mpg on the highway with slightly more "agressive" gearing, similar power and 300lbs less weight than the 300c, I'd say the 300c would be in a similar situation. it actually seems to be better off than the GTO in that respect. if the 300c gets a manual with tall overdrive gears, it would likely register >30mpg. not too bad for a 2 ton tank. especially considering the performance it delivers.

 

You know what I dont understand is that the standard V8 Monaro in Oz doesnt have as much power as the GTO, yet costs more when you convert it to the US dollar. And people here complain about the price when people in Oz cant seem to get enough?

 

We all know what they car needs, what it should have had, what it's gonna have, and what Pontiac wants to do for the next model, thankfully. It needs these things and the price reduced some, and then I think they'll do fine. But this year, no way. No how. Let's remember that the 1st year original GTO wasn't really too cool or good looking either and look how much it changed for the better right after that.

 

seriously? is that the general consensus? wow. every time I look at the first GTO I think "now THAT'S an awesome looking car!" after the 3rd or 4th year I thought they just became overdone and tacky looking. like all that was bad about the US cars and design philosophy of the time was perfectly reflected in those cars.

 

Too bad, your memory isn't what it used to be ( )... What I SAID then was I liked (and still do in fact) the looks of the new Stang but that many retro-styled cars suffer from an initial wave of acceptance and then their sales crash and burn. I've always felt the 05 Stangs will be a success when they first hit the showrooms (with the exception of significant fractions of female buyers); but the useful life of the "new" body style will be shorter than a truly fresh design and in the end it will cost Ford (and Ford customers). Another example: the new TBird.

You might as well! You're on a roll now, in misquoting me

One of my main points back then was how ripe the 03 Cobra was for warranty abuse. Here's a thread from another site, two Cobra owners lamenting their grenaded engines and one of them sweating it out after returning his engine to stock and limping back to his dealer:

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=7160

Think for a minute - which space has a dual purpose? Which does not?

FIFTEEN percent! No kidding! Time for a little golf clap then! As for having more rear headroom - it better - since I could not straighten my neck in the back seat of an 03 Stang (even though I have no trouble doing so in my 95 Formula).

Yes it's hot. Maybe you misconstrued my statement though. I was referring to the hot engine, interior with four bucket seats, IRS, and factory dual exhaust. Obviously it's not priced to be a hot seller - why should it be? Why should dealers sell it at a tiny profit if they can make significant profit? There will be only 18k units shipped, regardless. Once you drop the price of something and it is sold, the opportunity to make the profit available is gone forever. It's called 'leaving money on the table'. The new GTO IS in demand and it sells fine, but dealers are approaching the 'sweet spot' of pricing carefully and that takes some time. As for the quote from Jim Wangers - the more I see and hear him now the less I listen. Sure, he's right about the need for hood scoops (easier to fix BTW than the woeful power shortage in the TBird). But a true GTO hobbyist would be true to the ORIGINAL spirit of the GTO - understated styling and a honking hot V8, giving good performance. This the 04 GTO has in spades, in fact with a modern twist - this is the first GTO with good road performance as well as being quick at a dragstrip.

There you go again, misquoting (is that the only way you can make any headway in a debate? ). I was speaking of the STATE not one region of it. Why don't you focus in one one county or a suburb to prove your silly point? Are GTO's selling well in liberal San Francisco?

So typical of someone who knows they've lost the debate on its technical merits, blame it on a magazine... even though you (at least should) know the Magnum is heavier, and has a gearing and power disadvantage, you're still pulling for anything that's not GM. And this silliness about the Magnum being more versatile - OF COURSE it is. We are comparing a wagon against a coupe you know. And as for waiting for more results, I just read another review of a completely stock GTO performance test, this one doing 13.14 in the quarter

The GTO is selling, despite the fervent wishes of its naysayers. It's proven LS1 engine, winner of Ward's Ten Best Engines award, is being lavished as we speak with a multitude of available aftermarket parts. It's sweet factory dual exhaust is rumbling down the avenues of many of America's favorite cruising spots, while its four ergonomic bucket seats cradle four full-size adults who greatly appreciate its comfort, power and understated good looks. It is now accompanied by a growing flock of SSR's and Silverado SS's also rumbling down the street. If you don't like it, shove off.

 

BigDarknFast,

Agree with most of what you said, particularly about Snorman who is an anti-GM troll.

But I still maintain that the car is not selling very well and will have to be replaced. Yes, it has a lot of practical reasons to sell, but its styling looks about 10 years out of date. And, although the LS1 is one of the best V8s ever it really needs to have its performance upgraded (of course this will happen at the end of this year with the LS2).

The bottom line is the numbers themselves. At only 2700 sales out of a possible 18,000 with 6000 units sitting on the lot, GTO has big challenges ahead if it's going to stay around.

A good car no doubt, great interior. But currently quite dull.

 

Just a quick note on this, at our second points event for the local autox a GTO showed up from Columbus (OVR). I didnt hear any negatives about it. There were the usual pretty-bland comments, but no ugly comments. A lot of the import guys liked it a lot, even some of the Mini guys gave it thumbs up.

 

ROTFLMAO! Yeah...sure it will. You've been wrong about so many other things, add this to the pile. I'm sure Mustang sales will, as you put it, "crash and burn" later in the '05 MY...maybe by the '06 MY at the latest.
I know...I know. Just like your "points" about how the L's would suffer from chronic transmission failure because the tranny wasn't meant for the abuse that modified L's would dish out. Turned out to be wrong. But hey, you're an engineer, you'd know.
Wow...what a shock. A modified Cobra suffers from an engine failure.
Here is Need4Speed's mod list when he had the failure...
Probably ~500rwhp.
You probably also missed this part...
A lean tune. You understand this concept, I presume. This is a risk for any forced induction car, even the not-made-from-Kryptonite ‘03/’04 Cobra.
Yup...FIFTEEN percent. GTO could use more like FIFTY percent. For my needs, I'll take more cargo capacity and a smaller rear seat. My car is a daily driver, I don't carry passengers very often.
Oh, I see. It's got a "hot" engine and interior...'cause it sure isn't a hot seller.
Wow...you must have a lot of pent up anger. I was merely passing along some info. GTO is selling well in S. California and GM is going to be moving more units to that region. They've changed their plan to equally provide GTO to all Pontiac dealers nationwide.
LOL…yeah, I heard that one too. Funny how that car went .5 second a 3-4mph faster than any other tests. In fact, it went .4 second and 2mph faster than the car tested by HPP. Almost unbelievable. Kudos if it’s real, and not a factory ringer that GM slipped in for testing, because I don’t think you’ll find a GTO in private hands running anywhere near that time bone stock. That particular car is still 5mph slower than my own Cobra (and my first passes were in ~2000’ DA air).
It is? Are you living in a world with fairy dust and magical dragons? There are 7,000 GTO’s in the U.S., GM has sold just over 2,400 GTO’s in 4 months. April sales were lower than March sales, and May sales may prove to be lower yet.
Cool…another model to join GM’s sloth-like Silverado SS and the lethargic, almost embarrassingly slow SSR.
I did one better, I took my business elsewhere. Label me a GM-hating, Ford-fan all you’d like, it’ll prove how clueless you really are. The fact remains, I buy what I feel is the best vehicle for me in the class and market I’m shopping. GTO didn’t compare to what I got in Cobra for a daily driver. The Excursion didn’t come close to the Suburban last year when I was buying a full-size SUV, and consequently a Z71 ‘burban sits in my garage. IMO, it’s a better vehicle all around than the Excursion. And with the exception of sporadic reading on the rearview mirror mounted outside thermometer, I haven’t had one single problem with it in over a year and ~9k miles.
GM has some nice vehicles out there, but GTO IMO is underpowered, overweight and overpriced by dealers (among other things).
S.

 

FYI, this "troll" was on this site 5-years before you probably even knew it existed. Go crawl back under your rock with your make-believe LS1 F-body and your restored rustbucket with the "serious" motor you're building.
BigDarknFast has a whole lot more credibility than you. Though his borderline fanatical GM bias drives his arguments, he has a stance and a position. You, on the other hand, exist solely to stir the pot.

On LS1.com, a reader could surmise that you feel GTO to be the best thing since sliced bread. Over here, you're slamming it. Its in-need-of-updating LS1, its "large size and weight", its "kidney bean grill", its "dull" appearance...maybe you should pick a stance and stick with it instead of playing to the peanut gallery.
S.

 

Oh look, Snarlman put two and two together. I don't care how long you've been here. I don't care what you drive. You are a GM hater, a troll.

My argument about the GTO comes from one point of view. It is what I have always said, contrary to lies, exaggerations an innuendo you have always countered with because you have no argument.

Let's see, how did you fare about the GTO?

**You bet it wouldn't beat 13.5. It did. (But oh the car was a "ringer" [Snorman's Encylcopedia of Excuses Vol. 528] this time).

**Last year you actually said it would sell. What a twit.

**You said you like the GTO at LS1.com, but you wouldn't know that by reading your drivel here, which amount to your usual made-up counterattacks, half-truths and outright lies.

BTW Snarlman, you lost the bet. Funny how the first M6 to be raced at sea level is somehow a "ringer" when there's money on it. Anyone with a brain could have seen that this car is a low 13s car at sea level. There are other people who have done low 13s with M6 GTOs but you've taken to flaming them and calling them liars on LS1.com. Carlsbad, where HPP ran it with Evan Smith is not the fastest track - they even said in the article that the GTO is a low 13 second car in better conditions.

Your voracity and boundless abrasiveness covers for the fact that you're a sorehead. You've finally got a Cobra and it's likely the first car you've owned that didn't break down on the way to the track. Don't let it go to your head (Hah! Like that's going to happen!)

I have always said that the GTO is bland. At 350hp in a 3800lb car it is underpowered for its size. Low 13s don't cut it anymore in the musclecar game. Not when the 2005 GT looks like a 330hp+ car at around 500lbs lighter. Not when the musclecar the GTO replaces did a best of 12.89. Not when WRX Turbos and SRTs can embarrass it.

Still the 2004 GTO is FASTER than a 2004 Mustang GT and almost runs a dead heat with the Mach I. But only running with a Mustang is a step backward because the Mudstain is not as fast as an F-body.

If "stirring the pot" is pissing off Ford trolls like you then I admit I've done just that. You deserve it. And you opened your big mouth too many times and lost money over it.

You lose Snorman. You lose. But you can keep your money (like I ever thought I'd get it out of you). Now stop crying.

Notes for the uninitiated: In 2003 S. Norman bet me (Black R/A on LS1.com) that the GTO would not test better than 13.8 in a mass-produced internationally distributed major magazine. When I took him up on it he quickly changed the terms to 13.5 stock. We made the bet for $25. Snorman has lost the bet as of the release of the 13.14 time in GM High Tech Performance. That, and all the debates he's lost with me is why he hates my guts. Looks good on him.

Sorry folks. Didn't mean to bring this here, but Snorman has disappeared from LS1.com for some mysterious reason. I can't imagine why.