Maybe they should put the Corvette on hiatus then.

 

A turnabout from your claims last year that the '05 Mustang would flop shortly after its release because "retro" is only a flash in the pan and doesn't sell.
I'll lump this in with your prediction of grenaded '03/'04 Cobra motors as soon as an aftermarket pulley touched the blower snout.

The rear seats are a less-than-equal tradeoff for the useless trunk. Maybe the seats in Mustang aren't as comfortable as in GTO, but they are functional. And even better, they fold down for trunk access and a larger cargo area. I've read that the '05 Mustang will have approximately 15% more trunk space than the current car, along with more headroom for rear seat passengers.
Hot? ROTFLMAO! You're kidding, right? This article states that there are 6,000 GTO's in the states with over 1,000 in transit, yet only 2,415 were sold through April. That's 7,300 units when annualized. 168-day supply of GTO's? That's "hot"? You've got to be kidding me.
It's a slow seller. It has failed to capture the interest of the target market and the model is floundering. GM needs to do something about it.
Even Jim Wangers had this to say about GTO in a recent article on Bloomberg:
I tend to agree with him. And apparently, so do thousands of less-than-excited consumers.
FYI, southern California is one of the best areas for GTO sales. GM has indicated that it will be shipping more units to that area.
Ahhh...more magazine racing (internet racing?), how refreshing. How about waiting until the Magnum gets some decent tests? In any case, the Magnum has a seriously usable back seat and about 5 times the cargo carrying capacity of GTO. The reversible rear floor is also a neat touch.

GTO isn't selling. Its 7 year old drivetrain hasn't sealed the deal, and its bland styling has left buyers less than excited. GM needs to do something, otherwise it'll end up destined to follow in the footsteps of the SSR and Silverado SS.
S.

 

I talked to someone I know from the GTO Club tonight. When we got on the subject of the new GTO.....he nearly ripped my face off.

Here is a synopsis of our conversation:

" It doesn't look like a GTO...it's got a Corvette engine for God's sake ( not a compliment)......IT IS NOT A GTO."

His club was also recently invited to a preview showing of "The Last Ride".

Stop reading NOW if you don't want to know the end!

I guess they drive a '69 GTO Judge off of a cliff.

His remarks.....

CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY INVITED A GTO CLUB TO WATCH A '69 JUDGE GO OFF A CLIFF!!!!!!!!?????????!!!!!!!


He was one pissed off Pontiac dude....both about the new car and the movie.

 

Jeezus, this guy needs to get a freakin' life. He's taking things waaaay too seriously. He sounds like the type of guy who still lives in his parents' basement and has all the lines from Star Trek memorized.

 

You're in SE Michigan. EVERY car sells for a discount in SE Michigan. It's a little different outside of the motor city.

But there is a problem with GTO dealer gouging for this very reason: Usually when it happens, the cars are selling as fast as they can be made, but in GTO's case, they aren't. It will probably be the first car with a $2,000 REBATE and a $6,000 DEALER MARKUP!!!

 

Sounds like the type of idiot I'm itching to eat alive.

 

He's an idiot because he doesn't buy into the new GTO?
Most GTO purists don't seem to like the new GTO and they're idiots?
It's likely those exact people are who GM was hoping to capture in the market, and they've failed.
S.

 

He's probably never heard of Star Trek,but he's got a garage full (and some in a warehouse) of old Pontiacs.

 

I guess the point with the GTO guy is.....the "new" car has not made an impact ( a positive one anyway), with the vintage GTO crowd.

It's not a car that they are willing to move heaven and earth to own. Not saying that, that makes it a bad car......just that it's core enthusiast audience, seems to have rejected it.

And unlike the Cobra and Mach1....which once carried a premium price, because there was such a demand for them....GTO carries a premium price for no reason.

 

[b]

$750 over invoice in exchange for a guaranteed sale here in California! Also, Ford is placing no restrictions on production. There'll probally be markups once they hit the lot, but right now, you order one very cheap.

BTW: Cobra and Thunderbird markups weren't very outregous 5 months into being in showrooms as supplies balenced out.

Quote:

Bulloney. This is a LIMITED edition car. It's being marketed like one. Dealers are perfectly justified in finding the best price point and yes, some of them are making significant profit on the car (Oh My! ).

If the car was selling like hotcakes, and the demand was furious, then you wouldn't here much out of me regarding the markups. But when dealers mark up a car to the magnatude they have, and then complain that the car isn't selling, I think they qualify for Assclown awards.

Quote:

It better be good. The TBird suffered significantly from its stumbling launch with the infamous ignitable trunk battery. Ford has some catching up to do anyway to GM in the quality department (maybe they can take some classes at Toyota )

Ford's quality issues came about because of the penny pinching, nickel & dime culture Jac Nasser and company brought in. The 3.8 headgaskets, the cooling fan bearings, T-bird's battery terminals, and reducing maintence times for service departments (effectively cutting their pay), and pretty much all other screwups can be directly traced to emphasis on more money over quality.

But like GM, there's different people running the place today. The top guy has his name on the building, most all the non-Ford heads have been replaced with people who have been in the company for years, Ford has moved alot of stuff back in house, and the last few introductions have been virtually flawless. But as far as GM and quality, I'd say both are on par. GM at the moment seems to be the one having problems with introductions. If you want me to post a list of all recalls over the past 2 years I will, but I don't think that's necessary.

Quote:

Got evidence? Try getting a discount on a CTS-V buddy. Face it - the GTO is a hot machine. It's in demand (as you've stated - people do like the car). Dealers are excited to have it on their lot (maybe some want the traffic and THAT makes them reluctant to deal? thought of that?). Some dealers have a good inventory so they are dealing and selling at a discount. It's a matter of where one tries to find one. If you're in a poor supply area (import-crazed Cali does come to mind) try looking in another area.

Evidence? A simple trip to dealers is all the evidence you need. That's what I did.

As far getting discounts on a $52,000 Cadillac CTSv, I have a better comparison: The $35,000 Bonneville GXP. It's not selling well, it's being marketed as a limited edition car, it's in Pontiac showrooms right next to GTOs, and it has $6,000 cash back and a $1,000 GM loyalty bonus in addition to whatever deal you and the dealer make. What does GTO have?

GTO is a hot machine as far as performance. But according to the latest story from Automotive and Autoweek:

" So far this year, Pontiac has sold just 2,451 units. Discounting seasonal differences, that amounts to an annualized rate of 7,300 units - well below Pontiac's 16,000-unit target... GM has a 168-day supply of GTOs, well above the 60-day supply that is considered ideal."

"Some dealers say the market for coupes is limited, and the sticker is high. "

"As of last week Holden had built 8,500 GTOs. At least 6,000 are in the United States, and another 1,000 are in transit, GM says"


[b][b]

As the point being made about the GTO, the issue isn't the MSRP, it's the massive markups, lack of discounts, and the complaint by many dealers that it's not selling. Magnum with the Hemi starts at $29,000, the 300C starts at $32,000. Chrysler financial has a $1000 bonus for financing with them, and Chrysler is offering small incentives on the 300 so it's safe to assume the Magnum will be covered too.

According to Car & Driver, which usually is able to clock the quickest acceleration times in a vehicle, and use the most consistant conditions, both the GTO and the Chrysler 300C got identical 0-60 times of 5.3 seconds. The GTO they tested was a manual. The 300C of course was an automatic. Motor Trend which is very conservative about acceleration testing got 6.0 for the 300C & 5.3 for the GTO. Road & Track got 5.6 for the "C" and again 5.3 for the GTO.

Bottom line: If I was determined to get a car before the end of this year, even though I'd want a GTO first, I would buy something else. A GTO can't run away from a 300C with an out-the-door price at least $3-10,000 lower , the new Mustang will have the same performance for $7-15,000 less, and the Magnum station wagon will also keep pace with a GTO for $5-12,000 less.

Quote:

As if this is something new. It's been happening with Fords over the years too. So what? Have YOU ever had to make ends meet and turn a profit as a car dealer? Perhaps the government should intervene with some new "excessive-auto-dealer-profit" legislation )

Gee, I didn't know Car Dealers had it so rough and tough in the world. I guess that makes us little people who actually have to work hard and pay 4, 5, or even 6 years for these cars we buy really want to line up and increas our monthly payments on these vehicles by 33% just to help out the Pontiac dealer make ends meet.

But you know, if Pontiac dealers are having such a massively hard life by jacking up the price of a GTO to as high as $40,000, then that fellow down the street selling those Mustangs at $25,000 or less must be darn near poverty.

That means I get to save more money, and provide more needed assistance by going down the street and helping out that poor Ford dealer. Based on what it seems you are trying to say, of course.


I don't think you'll find many people here that actually don't at least appriciate the GTO, and I doubt you'll find a bigger GTO cheerleader than me. But even I have to conceed, after checking into ordering one in 3 different cities, if dealers are complaining about the cars not selling, they should look in their own showroom, and if GM is disappointed in it's sales, then they should (as they did with the $35,000 Bonneville GXP) put some incentives on it.

 

No the guys a complete idiot for this statement:

"It doesn't look like a GTO...it's got a Corvette engine for God's sake ( not a compliment)......IT IS NOT A GTO"

I won't even dive into this "so called" GTO look, despite the fact GTO went through at least 3 bodies during it's lifetime, all with different looks, only because he didn't elaborate. I do realize GTOs have traditionally had scoops and a different tail light, so I'll give him the benefit of doubt there, and the fact that GTO's styling is a matter of taste (the 1968 GTO had people criticize it's styling too).

However, this guy wants a special "GTO" engine since Corvette's not good enough for him. Never mind that Corvette engines are the most powerful passenger car engines GM makes, or that this Corvette powered GTO is quicker than any GTO that rolled stock off the assembly line. GM is supposed to spend money unnecessarily just to come up with a special engine to passify his whining a** .

I would say that's the type of mentality that irks me, but that would indicate the person in question to have a mind, and having a mind would indicate the ability to think, and the ability to think would indicate that any modern V8 powered car that GM has made in the last 20 years is going to share that engine with something else.

On 2nd thought, maybe saying he's a "complete idiot" is too strong.

A "simple idiot" will sufficice.

 

If that's your angle, then I don't disagree.
It's foolish to think Pontiac would develop a special engine for GTO. If they did, it would probably be a variant of the same damn supercharged 3.8 that has been in half a dozen different GM vehicles over the last eight years with virtually no changes.

Again, it's very hard to argue the fact that GM hasn't captured the attention of the GTO faithful.
I also think that, even considering markups, the car just isn't good enough to justify them. I think it was you who stated that it's a great car at $26k (or $28k), but at $34k+, it's only fair.
S.

 

I think you summed everything up very well here.

But I think that Pontiac really wasn't aiming for the core audience as much as they were aiming for an audience that didn't exist.

GTO was marketed toward those of us who would buy a BMW 3 series if they weren't so overpriced as much as winning the core GTO enthusiast as a sort of endorsement.

Where things went wrong is that those of us who were willing to spring for the understated GTO at $30-32,000 are turned off at the inflated mark ups as we were at the inflated sticker prices at the BMW dealer. At the same time, Pontiac purged the "boy racers" in favor of a so called sophistocated market.

So now you have people like me (probally the target audience) who are getting a little tired waiting for GTO prices to drop down to at least sticker, the people who would have paid $32,000 for an outregous WS6 Trans Am aren't the same people who would pay $32,000 for a buttoned down GTO, and the sane, vast majority of GTO enthuiasts (as opposed to the nut jobs wouldn't by any new GTO unless it had a carburetor & looked like a jukebox) who are all for different reasons put off by the GTO.

 

I don't have any issue with anyone who doesn't like the GTO's styling. I like my cars low keyed and very fast, and I know that I'm a minority with that taste. I also don't have any problem with anyone who says GTO needs hood scoops & a recessed grill before they'll look at it. Again, that's not me, but I can completely understand anyone who feels that way.

It's just that there has been so much ridiculous stuff said on the GTO subject that you really have to wonder if some of these people graduated pre-school.

Here's some of the classic reasons why some people feel the new GTO isn't a GTO (and I'm not making any of this stuff up):

*It doesn't have multiple carburetors
*GM even put a cheap import stereo in the car (it's a Blaupunkt system for crissake! )
*It's not made in the US (some original GTOs were made in Canada)
*It doesn't look like a GTO. ( asks "How does a GTO look?") Look at the 1967 Judge... (not realizing there was no Judge in 1967, and that the Judge was made only 2 of the 10 years GTO was around!)
*The engine's too small (It's currently the biggest car engine around).
*It doesn't have a ram air system.

Some other classic statements regarding GTO (again none made up):

*The GTO and LeMans had different bodies (some of you may remember that one)
*GTOs didn't look like other Pontiacs.
*The old GTOs would tear the new one to shreads (only with Pontiac aftermarket parts)
*Moving the GTO fuel tank from a few inches of the rear bumper to between the wheels in the trunk made the GTO more dangerous in a rear end collision (another one some here will remember).
*Australian cars are crap (never been to Australia or even seen an Australian car, let alone drive one)
*GTO's interior is too cheap (before the car even came out).
*Old GTOs handled better (see above).

Hope this clarifies the different ways I see the GTO enthusiast that simply don't like the way the new car looks versus the GTO assclowns who don't even know what the hell they are talking about.

 

I wouldnt say all old GTO owners dislike the GTO. NikiVee is deffinatly a GTO enthusiast, and he loves his new GTO.
Its funny to see reviews of this car. The owners of the new GTO LOVE there car and the way it drives. Im sure they just didnt jump into a GTO without testing other cars.
I love the GTO because it offers a sweet package of just about everything I could want. Im only 20 years old, but If I had the money, I would skip over the fbody and head right to a GTO.
I dont think that 32-33k is too much money for what you get with the GTO. I think pricing should be a tad lower like starting at 29-30 and with 6spd be like 31. Its deffinatly a primo car. Its not slow, it doesnt handle like a pig, and its not gunna fall apart on you. I dont think the GTO is dull, its just not what everyone wanted when they heard about it. The GTO went from a understaded little 2dr sedan with a big motor and some chrome accent scoops to a loud mouthed, bold and brash machine.
The image of the GTO, IMO, has been blown into this mega machine that ruled the road. I dont think it needs scoops to be a GTO. I think it could have some things that could make it appear more attractive or make you do a double take, and scoops on that car just dont fit. Fender flares, recessed grill, body kit, dual side exhaust, different rims, different deck wing... stuff like that would be much better suited for the GTO then scoops. The scoops do zero for anything then goof up the hood. Just the AutoX package alone make the car look 10x better and I think GM should take that and run.