^^^^ Yeah, what he said

 

1. It's TORQUE, not horsepower that's the issue here. Compare the torque figures fror the new 5.3 and then the SC 3.8. Big difference.

2. Scott mentioned a demonstration of traction control on an F-body doing better than a FWD Impala in the snow (I believe he had a video of it, if he cares to chime in on this).

3. Once you loose control of the set of wheels that handle all your braking, acceleration, and steering, you're helpless! With RWD, you still have control via your rear wheels for both slowing and steering. The Ohio State Police some years ago had a film that explained why they refuse to use RWD. The film involved the handling differences between FWD & RWD in snow and slick conditions. It was downright scary.

I have personally seen (and dodged) more than a few FWD cars on the freeway that spun out in slippery conditions while I was driving along in my RWD Camaro and Thunderbird. I've also seen 1 FWD minivan spin out (and almost take me out in the process).

Personally, I'll NEVER buy a FWD vehicle. I personally believe they are downright dangerous to anyone who doesn't drive conservatively.

That being said, in dry conditions, I think the '06 Monte Carlo SS is in fact going to be one awesome runner. In a straight line, and quite likely around a track as well.

 

The achilles heel of a FWD vehicle is the "feel of control" in slick conditions. Yes, they can take off much better (in general) and feel like you have greater control. But your stopping power is no better/worse then a RWD and that's where they get into trouble. When your in a RWD vehicle and it takes you 5 minutes to get up to speed you know it's slick out. If your in a FWD vehicle and it takes right off, you get the impression that your in control when you are not. A good way to find out if your in a FWD vehicle is watch the RWD's sliding and spinning = slow it down...

 

I'd say that's true of any car in the rain or snow, don't you think?

BTW, the LS4 GXP, that I drove (GM Autoshow in motion), was in the rain. I drove as fast around the course as felt I could (maybe even faster). There was one tight corner that I kept overcooking the front tires on (just plain going too fast), and although the fronts lost traction, I never felt out of control.

The GTO's I drove the same day, on the same course, in the same rain, had to be driven MUCH more carefully and slowly ....and even with that, it's tail was breaking loose constantly.

No doubt in my mind which one would handle a Chicago winter better.

 

First off, a stock SC 3.8 makes ~280 lb/ft of torque stock, let alone the addition of a 3.4" pulley. . . it's easily 300+. I don't see how that's a *BIG* difference from 325 in the 5.3L. Secondly, I didn't know that people try to accelerate in the snow at their peak torque!? [sarcasm] What the hell does the torque rating have to do when we're talking about accelerating at PART THROTTLE!?!?

My point was simple. . .2 cars with the same curbweight, same all season tires, same hp & tq, one FWD, the other RWD, the FWD one will have a much easier time acclerating from a stop in snow. . . and the RWD one will have a VERY hard time on inclines. Face it, more weight over the drive wheels helps. My RWD Fiero with the engine in the rear (duh) was AWESOME in the snow.

I'm not talking about turning, braking, slaloming, etc. . . I'm talking about NOT GETTING STUCK in the snow.
geeezalou!

Who cares. . . I've driven my 440hp Z28 nearly bald RSA's in slick conditions past AWD SUVS in the ditch. . . doesn't mean that my Z28 was better in those conditions!

hehehe, come on. . . this statement is just too funny as Z284ever already pointed out!

oh, I forgot to add one car to the list that i've owned. . . an 81 Celica. . .
So, my low HP RWD cars (240SX & Celica) should've been much better than my low 14 second GTP in the snow huh!? I mean, they must've been making a solid 150 lb/ft of torque at about 4800rpms! WRONG. . . they were garbage in the snow!

Sorry, a FWD car with the same engine & tires as a RWD car, will have less of a chance getting stuck in snow or on an incline. . . it's not an opinion, but a fact.

If that car had a 50/50 weight distribution, I wouldn't make such a statement. . .

And if that car had 51% or more of the weight over the rear, I'd say that the RWD equivalent would be better at acclerating in the snow.

Mike

 

It would seem to me that GM is putting the V8 in the FWD cars for performance. This is the part that I find questionable as the front wheels already handle most of the braking and all of the turning.

As for how well fwd does against rwd in bad weather, I think the results of each, whether they be good or bad, have more to do with the operator than the vehicle configuration.

 

Attempts at fast corner exits oughta be fun. That is, if someone's idea of "fun" is putting the outside front corner into an Armco barrier. A gear-type limited-slip would be of huge use on corner exits. On corner entry, there's probably not much to do but pray for the life of the outside front tire, and hope that you don't find the bumpstops.

Surely the operator - and very importantly, their comfort level with the location of the drive wheels - is the #1 factor, but a very close second is the choice of tire. Whether on a FWD, RWD, 4WD, or AWD vehicle, steamroller tires with big unbroken tread blocks (this can describe either a dry-performance tire, or a mud tire) pretty much suck.

 

Thank you...thank you...thank you Especially the last line of your statement.

guion, you know what you do if you lose traction in the snow in a FWD car? GET OFF THE GAS!!!!!!!!!! It'll stop plowing 9 times out of 10. I have NEVER gotten out of shape in a FWD car and not been able to recover. And that's including times I've been goofing off! My '89 RS on the other hand? I never crashed it, but when provoked it got hairy.

 

That's not exactly a fair comparison: Camaros have LSDs whereas Impalas don't. And traction control does not make up for lack of LSD. Put on open diff on both cars and I'll bet a week's pay the results will be different.

Traction to get a car moving in snow is dependent on one thing: the amount of weight over the driven wheels. A FWD car has more of its weight over the driven wheels and therefore has better traction than a RWD car.

Another advantage of FWD is that you can steer the driven wheels. If your car is ploughing into a ditch, you can crank the wheel and apply some power, and the wheels will generate thrust away from the ditch and help you avoid it. Try that in a RWD car. This technique will also help pull a FWD car around a slippery corner.

The only advantage to having RWD in the snow is once you're underway and you can use its better balance to keep the car under control. But if you're already driving that fast in slippery conditions then you're a moron no matter which set of wheels is propelling you.

I grew up in an area of Canada that gets pretty harsh winters and I learned to drive on open-diff RWD cars. Believe me, our first FWD car was a godsend. There's no doubt in my mind it's the better choice for winter driving.

 

1. If you are worried about accelerating in the snow that is probally on the ground in enough quanities to affect driving in the snowiest part of the country for those 20-40 days out of 365, then go get yourself an AWD vehicle you can live with the other 320 days where you don't need to worry about snow.

2. If you don't see the difference between 280 and 325 lbs/ft of torque, then I'd probally be wasting my time explaining that it's over 15% more torque, which is alot more than a little significant.


Perhaps we now live in a day and age where people are too lazy to go buy a set of $60 snow tires, but if someone wants to compromise their handling, stopping, and performance on FWD for those 20-30 days per year where they'll actually see an advantage, then more power to them.

Again, go get yourself an AWD crossover.

And if your Z28 was in a ditch, and SUVs were driving past you in slick conditions, it doesn't mean those SUVs were better in those conditions either.

I think you have a psycological fear of snow. You seem to be obsessed with it. I learned to drive in Pittsburgh, home of both hills, and snow. Never died a flaming horrible death. Exactly what do you think the world did back before automakers brainwashed the general public that without FWD you'd face certain death?

I'll let you in on a little secret: FWD was pushed because it's a very simple drivetrain setup, and it enables engineers to create as much space as possible in a small package.

God, you really REALLY do have a snow fixation, don't you?

Snow again? My god, it doesn't even snow that much in Kodiak Alaska (yes, I've been there), let alone New Lenox Illonois!

Perhaps you'd be happier in an AWD Subaru WRX. I know I'd feel safer if you drove one.

 

They look like a barn door.

 

FWD cars are better than RWD in the snow, AWD cars is better than FWD, and an AWD SUV or truck is the best. But what does it take to have a RWD car eliminate, and even top the FWD car? A set of cheap snow tires. You put them on in late December, early January, and you pull them off early to mid March, hang them in the back of the garage, and use them again next year, and the year after.

The point is that some people are getting pretty silly over the snow argument. It rains 3 months out of the year here in California. But the same silly logic, people here should buy only hardtops, not t-tops or convertibles. Most of the year in most of the country, you don't need aircon. Yet it's almost mandatory.

To me, the ability to not have to buy a set of snow tires is not worth the fun, enjoyment, and vehicle control that RWD has over FWD. Sure, FWD feels more secure in some conditions, but I have driven both my Z28 and Thunderbird SC in snow up Interstate 80 to Reno Nevada more than a few times. Right by many FWD cars experiencing problems, complete with drivers with those all season tires.

Today's RWD cars tend to be high performance cars with wide tires, not the type of tires that work in snow. Perhaps that's what's throwing peoples minds about RWD cars ability in snow.

 

We get a lot more than 20-40 days here, and it only takes ONE really bad day to really mess your life up... PERMANENTLY.


1) I can put snow tires on the FWD car too.

2) Erm... I think the idea that people buy all-season or snow tires pretty much proves the point that low traction conditions are an important consideration and are will to make the trade-off relative to performance.

3) I do not believe that RWD cars have any inherent braking advantage. Matter of fact, since most braking (about 80%) is done by the FRONT brakes on a car, the FWD architecture has a significant advantage in that area. The current numbers are most likely skewed by the fact that RWD is most certainly better for all around performance, and that type of vehicle will tend to have better brakes and chassis tuning for performance due to the market it competes in.

4) AGAIN, it's a lot more than 20-30 days here. Try... oh... 4 months where you'll have to deal with freezing rain, snow or ice.


Don't want one for an everyday commuter, but I can see the value in an AWD car. I just honestly don't want to pay for the AWD yet. FWD is undoubtedly better than RWD, and good enough in snow, and I'm interested in saving money when I buy an appliance.



Erm... Pittsburgh vs. Detroit in the snow contest??? Not even close. LAKES. Think LAKES. "LAKE EFFECT SNOW" is a common phrase around here for a good reason...


Well, for starters, people DIED A LOT MORE OFTEN IN CAR ACCIDENTS IN LOW TRACTION CONDITIONS. It wasn't a brainwash job, it's a fact. FWD IS better in low traction. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is you're wrong. Period.

The other compelling reasons for FWD are:

1) Better packaging. You get more interior space for a given vehicle size out of FWD.

2) Better fuel economy. A FWD at a given size can be lighter than an equivalent RWD car.

3) Cost. A FWD powertrain is much easier to install in a car than a RWD one. The entire thing is contained on a cradle sub-frame and the car is dropped over it.


That's not the only reason. See above.

 

This is probably one of the only places where you will find very intelligent people arguing that FWD actually does not have a significant advantage over RWD in the snow.

When we lived in MA, we had a GP GTP and a Z28. My dad's Camaro had Blizzaks, and sandbags in the trunk. Still, the Camaro's snow capabilities were, in a word, scary. He was able to drive it on the occasions were he got caught with a snowstorm, but it never was pretty. He'd basically ride the brakes home and hope for the best. He always said he'd pass suv's on the side of the road, but usually that's stupid driving. I remember one especially fun night when in white out conditions, I had to shovel and salt the driveway continously so that the Camaro could get enough traction to get up out of the street. It took 45 minutes!

In contrast, the GTP, even with its stock R-SA's was just a beast. No, you couldn't floor it down the straight aways - you can't do that in any car during snow conditions - but if you drove carefully the car was far more forgiving than the Camaro.

 

I don't know about FWD braking advantage. Yes front brakes do 70-80% of the braking in general, but with the lopsided f/r weight distribution you are asking fwd cars' front brakes to handle even more of the load, maybe 90% in some cases.

In general I'd say this is a "not good" situation in terms of braking performance, given as Pacer X said re: fwd cars usually don't have as capable a braking system in terms of rotor size, pad size or heat sinking ability. FWD car is going to nose dive a lot more all other things being equal, because of the whacky weight distribution.

FWD in the snow is advantageous because the drive wheels pull you along. All you have to do is steer in the direction you want to go and punch the gas. I think its more intuitive that way, therefore its easier for most people. I drove an open rear '85 Camaro LG4 through a couple of really big snows 10 years or so ago (really big for KY weather anyway, 12-14") just fine, and I learned a ton about how to steer and handle a RWD car in those conditions. IMO that makes me about equal in snow vs a FWD car. But the FWD is more intuitive and in general is going to perform better.