Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,600
From: Pewee Valley, KY
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by ProudPony
From a sales standpoint, I think it is a novel idea - V8 FWD. The "dumb" shopper will think,"Hey, more power AND it will go in 24" of snow! I'll take it!".
Truth is, it will do horrible in the snow and slick stuff compared to a 4 or 6 cylinder with lighter transaxle. Additional weight over the front tires is OK for normal and friction forces, but remember that the tires have to MOVE that additional weight too, requiring more traction. Then you have the V8 with gobs of torque or nothing at all - not the best condition on slick surfaces. Law of diminishing return applies here.
Then we get to the power going through the front suspension... IMO, this is not a good thing. As someone else already eluded to, it is commonplace to design the front suspension for thrust-loads due to breaking, and up to 80% of the braking power is done on the front wheels after weight transfer is complete. Now, to have to design a system that will take 80% of braking, and 100% of forward thrust TOO... whew... glad it's not MY JOB. Even though you can stiffen the arms, links, pinions, and you can add beef and heft, you still have to have bushings somewhere in the design. And shocks. And this is where the weak link will rise up. I predict these cars will be notorious for having suspension work done on them... replacing bushings, tie rod ends, and the like. And be aware that "beefing" all the suspension parts up to take the added torque will add weight to the car too, so just making the arms from thicker steel is a trade-off at best.
Besides...
Anybody here NOT like throttle-steering?!?!
How are you gonna play with this car at a drag strip?!?!
My overall predictions...
This car will sell well to the average daily commuter that wants a V8 - I really think so.
The car will actually last a long time and do well if it is driven civilly.
The car will be "fast", but if you pound on it, it will pound on your wallet soon after.
The car will not give the same FWD benefits as a V6 or 4-cyl car due to the added heft.
Aftermarket will not embrace this car because there are too many limitations put forth from the FWD.
I personally think resale values and depreciation will be terrible on this car, due to same reasons listed above (pounding on it, etc).
You won't see this car showing up at many SCCA events or at autoX's.
And finally, the "true enthusiasts" that would jump on a 1986 Monte SS will not touch this car.
So all-in-all, I think Chevy may have found a niche market here that nobody else is servicing... but how many buyers are in this niche market - I have no idea.
Side note : Smoking a front tire with a V8 is just wrong IMO.
Truth is, it will do horrible in the snow and slick stuff compared to a 4 or 6 cylinder with lighter transaxle. Additional weight over the front tires is OK for normal and friction forces, but remember that the tires have to MOVE that additional weight too, requiring more traction. Then you have the V8 with gobs of torque or nothing at all - not the best condition on slick surfaces. Law of diminishing return applies here.
Then we get to the power going through the front suspension... IMO, this is not a good thing. As someone else already eluded to, it is commonplace to design the front suspension for thrust-loads due to breaking, and up to 80% of the braking power is done on the front wheels after weight transfer is complete. Now, to have to design a system that will take 80% of braking, and 100% of forward thrust TOO... whew... glad it's not MY JOB. Even though you can stiffen the arms, links, pinions, and you can add beef and heft, you still have to have bushings somewhere in the design. And shocks. And this is where the weak link will rise up. I predict these cars will be notorious for having suspension work done on them... replacing bushings, tie rod ends, and the like. And be aware that "beefing" all the suspension parts up to take the added torque will add weight to the car too, so just making the arms from thicker steel is a trade-off at best.
Besides...
Anybody here NOT like throttle-steering?!?!
How are you gonna play with this car at a drag strip?!?!
My overall predictions...
This car will sell well to the average daily commuter that wants a V8 - I really think so.
The car will actually last a long time and do well if it is driven civilly.
The car will be "fast", but if you pound on it, it will pound on your wallet soon after.
The car will not give the same FWD benefits as a V6 or 4-cyl car due to the added heft.
Aftermarket will not embrace this car because there are too many limitations put forth from the FWD.
I personally think resale values and depreciation will be terrible on this car, due to same reasons listed above (pounding on it, etc).
You won't see this car showing up at many SCCA events or at autoX's.
And finally, the "true enthusiasts" that would jump on a 1986 Monte SS will not touch this car.
So all-in-all, I think Chevy may have found a niche market here that nobody else is servicing... but how many buyers are in this niche market - I have no idea.
Side note : Smoking a front tire with a V8 is just wrong IMO.
I do agree with a lot of your points about FWD V8s but if GM had wanted this to be a long term thing I think AWD would have been a must. The next Monte (if it stays FWD based) will ride on Epsilon II or Chi, both of which WILL have be AWD capable. I think it would goto Chi since it is based on lambda and should be designed to handle a V8 from the get go.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,043
From: Shelbyville, IN
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by ProudPony
And finally, the "true enthusiasts" that would jump on a 1986 Monte SS will not touch this car.
So all-in-all, I think Chevy may have found a niche market here that nobody else is servicing... but how many buyers are in this niche market - I have no idea.
Side note : Smoking a front tire with a V8 is just wrong IMO.
So all-in-all, I think Chevy may have found a niche market here that nobody else is servicing... but how many buyers are in this niche market - I have no idea.
Side note : Smoking a front tire with a V8 is just wrong IMO.
16yr olds that don't have a clue into the tuner crowd will be like FWD V8 AWESOME!!! They think RWD is redneck anyhow...
(Can't say that I'm excited about that myself... but if it sells - good for GM)
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,881
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by Chrome383Z
I disagree. I think the "niche" Tuner market is MUCH larger then our "niche" RWD market. They will hop ALL OVER this car. Expect to see Turbo's, Supercharger's, and Nitrous all over these bad boys.
16yr olds that don't have a clue into the tuner crowd will be like FWD V8 AWESOME!!! They think RWD is redneck anyhow...
(Can't say that I'm excited about that myself... but if it sells - good for GM)
16yr olds that don't have a clue into the tuner crowd will be like FWD V8 AWESOME!!! They think RWD is redneck anyhow...
(Can't say that I'm excited about that myself... but if it sells - good for GM)
V8's are what "tuners" are rebeling against. They want to show up the big guys with their little engines. Dont count on them jumping on to the bandwagon for these cars.
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Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 171
From: New Lenox, IL
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by ProudPony
From a sales standpoint, I think it is a novel idea - V8 FWD. The "dumb" shopper will think,"Hey, more power AND it will go in 24" of snow! I'll take it!".
Truth is, it will do horrible in the snow and slick stuff compared to a 4 or 6 cylinder with lighter transaxle. Additional weight over the front tires is OK for normal and friction forces, but remember that the tires have to MOVE that additional weight too, requiring more traction. Then you have the V8 with gobs of torque or nothing at all - not the best condition on slick surfaces. Law of diminishing return applies here.
Truth is, it will do horrible in the snow and slick stuff compared to a 4 or 6 cylinder with lighter transaxle. Additional weight over the front tires is OK for normal and friction forces, but remember that the tires have to MOVE that additional weight too, requiring more traction. Then you have the V8 with gobs of torque or nothing at all - not the best condition on slick surfaces. Law of diminishing return applies here.
As mentioned above, the weight won't be much different than a SC 3.8 setup. Let alone compared to a Grand Prix. Before my LS1 Z28, I owned a '99 GTP with a 3.4" pulley. I went 14.2@97 mph on a warm summer day. With the stock OEM all season tires the car was absolutely AWESOME in the snow.
The Monte SS V8 with traction control and All seasons will kick butt in the snow and you'd be crazy to think otherwise.
I also think all you FWD naysayers are out of your mind. Take a car that's 3500lbs with 300hp. . . have a RWD version and FWD version with the same all season tires, and the FWD will perform better in the snow (IN REGARDS TO STRAIGHT LINE ACCELERATION). The RWD setup just doesn't have the weight over the rear tires to get moving as quickly.
With that said, I've seen how well a RWD car will work with some weight in the back and snow tires; therefore I won't ever avoid a RWD car in the future.
I've had quite a few experiences with rwd & fwd (and AWD)
Fiero, FWD Talon, RWD 240sx, Syclone, GTP, Murano, Grand Am, Z28.
The Fiero (with the rear engine) accelerated AWESOME in the snow. The Z28 was worst (when stock, not when it was going 12.0!) Althought when it was running low 12's I continued to drive it through the winter w/ snow tires.
:-)
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Proud makes alot of good points, and theoretically, I pretty much agree with all of them.
The points about how do you get 2 tires to handle 100% of 303hp/325ftlbs, 80% of braking, 100% of the steering...are certainly valid. We'll see how it all pans out........
But theory aside, I'm interested to see how the Monte Carlo SS will actually perform and how it will be (or not be) embraced by enthusiasts.
On a different note, at the last autocross I went to, there was a guy with a last gen GTP. His car had lots of mods, in powertrain...but especially suspension. I don't know how much power he had, but from what he said, he was certainly in the near 300 hp neighborhood. But it was the chassis that this guy really focused on. Springs (lowered afew inches), struts, sway bars, bushings, brakes, wheels, tires....you name it...it was all breathed on.
Let me tell you...this car was simply a rocket around the track...putting it's ample power down, effectively. We all watched in amazement, as this big FWD sedan, smoked cars that you wouldn't expect to get smoked
He ended up winning his class...so like I said....we'll see how it all pans out.
The points about how do you get 2 tires to handle 100% of 303hp/325ftlbs, 80% of braking, 100% of the steering...are certainly valid. We'll see how it all pans out........
But theory aside, I'm interested to see how the Monte Carlo SS will actually perform and how it will be (or not be) embraced by enthusiasts.
On a different note, at the last autocross I went to, there was a guy with a last gen GTP. His car had lots of mods, in powertrain...but especially suspension. I don't know how much power he had, but from what he said, he was certainly in the near 300 hp neighborhood. But it was the chassis that this guy really focused on. Springs (lowered afew inches), struts, sway bars, bushings, brakes, wheels, tires....you name it...it was all breathed on.
Let me tell you...this car was simply a rocket around the track...putting it's ample power down, effectively. We all watched in amazement, as this big FWD sedan, smoked cars that you wouldn't expect to get smoked
He ended up winning his class...so like I said....we'll see how it all pans out.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,043
From: Shelbyville, IN
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by falchulk
V8's are what "tuners" are rebeling against. They want to show up the big guys with their little engines. Dont count on them jumping on to the bandwagon for these cars.
They have not ever had the option of a V8 and I think the V8 in a FWD trim will appeal to them. The only thing that may not is it's alittle bigger car then they are used too. If anything it might attract some FWD Tuner fanatics that are getting alittle older and need a bigger car - but want some power still as well.
Who knows. We will see. Either way, I still think this thing will sell and be good for GM.
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Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 3,252
From: Knoxville, TN
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by Chrome383Z
Now this is just a wild guess as I'm not in the "Tuner Crowd". IMO, they are rebeling against the V8's mostly because V8's are all in RWD larger vehicles.
Anything is possible, I suppose.....I mean the Red Sox won the World Series, so who knows.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,881
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by mgreen
Holy crap I think you're crazy. . .
As mentioned above, the weight won't be much different than a SC 3.8 setup. Let alone compared to a Grand Prix. Before my LS1 Z28, I owned a '99 GTP with a 3.4" pulley. I went 14.2@97 mph on a warm summer day. With the stock OEM all season tires the car was absolutely AWESOME in the snow.
The Monte SS V8 with traction control and All seasons will kick butt in the snow and you'd be crazy to think otherwise.
I also think all you FWD naysayers are out of your mind. Take a car that's 3500lbs with 300hp. . . have a RWD version and FWD version with the same all season tires, and the FWD will perform better in the snow (IN REGARDS TO STRAIGHT LINE ACCELERATION). The RWD setup just doesn't have the weight over the rear tires to get moving as quickly.
With that said, I've seen how well a RWD car will work with some weight in the back and snow tires; therefore I won't ever avoid a RWD car in the future.
I've had quite a few experiences with rwd & fwd (and AWD)
Fiero, FWD Talon, RWD 240sx, Syclone, GTP, Murano, Grand Am, Z28.
The Fiero (with the rear engine) accelerated AWESOME in the snow. The Z28 was worst (when stock, not when it was going 12.0!) Althought when it was running low 12's I continued to drive it through the winter w/ snow tires.
:-)
As mentioned above, the weight won't be much different than a SC 3.8 setup. Let alone compared to a Grand Prix. Before my LS1 Z28, I owned a '99 GTP with a 3.4" pulley. I went 14.2@97 mph on a warm summer day. With the stock OEM all season tires the car was absolutely AWESOME in the snow.
The Monte SS V8 with traction control and All seasons will kick butt in the snow and you'd be crazy to think otherwise.
I also think all you FWD naysayers are out of your mind. Take a car that's 3500lbs with 300hp. . . have a RWD version and FWD version with the same all season tires, and the FWD will perform better in the snow (IN REGARDS TO STRAIGHT LINE ACCELERATION). The RWD setup just doesn't have the weight over the rear tires to get moving as quickly.
With that said, I've seen how well a RWD car will work with some weight in the back and snow tires; therefore I won't ever avoid a RWD car in the future.
I've had quite a few experiences with rwd & fwd (and AWD)
Fiero, FWD Talon, RWD 240sx, Syclone, GTP, Murano, Grand Am, Z28.
The Fiero (with the rear engine) accelerated AWESOME in the snow. The Z28 was worst (when stock, not when it was going 12.0!) Althought when it was running low 12's I continued to drive it through the winter w/ snow tires.
:-)
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,881
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by Chrome383Z
Now this is just a wild guess as I'm not in the "Tuner Crowd". IMO, they are rebeling against the V8's mostly because V8's are all in RWD larger vehicles.
They have not ever had the option of a V8 and I think the V8 in a FWD trim will appeal to them. The only thing that may not is it's alittle bigger car then they are used too. If anything it might attract some FWD Tuner fanatics that are getting alittle older and need a bigger car - but want some power still as well.
Who knows. We will see. Either way, I still think this thing will sell and be good for GM.
They have not ever had the option of a V8 and I think the V8 in a FWD trim will appeal to them. The only thing that may not is it's alittle bigger car then they are used too. If anything it might attract some FWD Tuner fanatics that are getting alittle older and need a bigger car - but want some power still as well.
Who knows. We will see. Either way, I still think this thing will sell and be good for GM.
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Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 171
From: New Lenox, IL
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by falchulk
High power front drivers are not good in the snow, especially when they have a lot of low end torque. Whens the last time you drove one? For the last 25 years, the FWD advantage has been the low power/torque and weight over the wheels. With low end torque, you spin the wheels very easy. With an automatic, you cant start off in a higher gear so that will be tricky as well.
And again, it was my modified GTP which was probabaly making ~270hp and 300tq. . . it handled well, extremely well. Traction control can tame HP.
I don't see how a Monte SS 300hp V8 at part throttle will be so much more uncontrollable than a 270HP GTP at part throttle.
So again, A4 LS1 Fbody w/ Traction control and all season tires versus V8 Monte SS in 10" of snow on a slight incline from a dead stop. . . the Monte will pull away better all day long.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,400
From: Michigan's left coast
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Let me tell you...this car was simply a rocket around the track...putting it's ample power down, effectively. We all watched in amazement, as this big FWD sedan, smoked cars that you wouldn't expect to get smoked.
I think that the tuner market will not prove itself to be bigger than the "traditional RWD" market; in fact, I think there's some signs that the fad is already winding down. And regardless, your average FWD enthusiast will probably not purchase a NASCAR redneckmobile with a pushrod V8 (despite the fact that said V8 has a lot of advantages over the average hi-po DOHC V6).
Anyone know if there's been an attempt to improve the suspension geometry of these new V8 W-cars? Obviously we're not going to see a nice dual control arm setup like Honda uses on their midsize platform, but hopefully they've been able to make use of multi-compliance bushings and so on in an attempt to keep the front wheels pointed in the right direction. Based on my experience with Nissan Maximas, I feel that a McPherson strut suspension is not up to the task of putting 250+ HP through a pair of front tires, especially not when it comes time to romp on the throttle while attempting a left turn across a bumpy intersection.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,376
From: Sarasota FL
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by falchulk
High power front drivers are not good in the snow, especially when they have a lot of low end torque. Whens the last time you drove one? For the last 25 years, the FWD advantage has been the low power/torque and weight over the wheels. With low end torque, you spin the wheels very easy. With an automatic, you cant start off in a higher gear so that will be tricky as well.
Put the right tires on these things, and they will be snow kings. Proud, I am not following your argument at all with respect to this car and snow. More weight over the front wheels is BETTER, not worse. The more weight you have pushing down on the snow, the better you're going to go through it. If less weight was better, then why does everyone I know who drives F bodies in the winter throw sand bags in the trunk????????????
I'd also like to refute the myth that because it has 300hp it will suck in snow. My best friend has a '94 Eldorado Touring Coupe with 295hp...this car was great with the OEM Michelins. He threw snows on it for this past winter, and it was as beastly as my GP. I have news for some of you...I WANT a MC SS BECAUSE it is FWD. 4 years of F bodies in the winter was enough for me. Sure, you can do it...but a FWD car makes life in the snow belt much easier. I know I know, we've beaten this issue to death. Its just that on this particular board, the bias against FWD is understandably large. I wouldn't want a FWD Camaro, but I can embrace a FWD MC SS.
And Charlie brought up a point I was going to bring up. The W body chassis can be made to handle phenomenally well. There is already a slew of chassis parts for these cars. Some wonder if "enthusiasts" will embrace FWD...
Go ask a GTP owner who's modded his car to run 12s or faster if he's an "enthusiast" or not.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,400
From: Michigan's left coast
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
Originally Posted by Jason E
Some wonder if "enthusiasts" will embrace FWD...
Why a 3500 lb 300 HP coupe is FWD while a 2700 lb 177 HP roadster is RWD, I'm not quite sure.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,043
From: Shelbyville, IN
Re: Has anyone stopped to think how quick the '06 Monte Carlo SS will be?!
That roadster is not designed to be an "all-season" car like the Monte's or Impy's.
No one is disputing RWD IS better for performance, BUT FWD is not near as bad as people make it out to be. Although, this is a RWD forum so you can't expect non-byassed opinions.
Goto a FWD forum and they'll give you 100 reasons why their FWD is better then a RWD anyday. And vice-versa here...
No one is disputing RWD IS better for performance, BUT FWD is not near as bad as people make it out to be. Although, this is a RWD forum so you can't expect non-byassed opinions.
Goto a FWD forum and they'll give you 100 reasons why their FWD is better then a RWD anyday. And vice-versa here...