I'll toss the idea in about pricing is an issue. Hell, GM should have lost money on the car. Learning process for converting Holdens and getting Pontiac a halo car would have been worth it, and it would have kept the buzz going.

I wouldn't say as low as 25K, thinking more like 28K, keep away from that 30K barrier.

-B

 

If they made it into a cadi it would sell alot better, but as a pontiac, lol. who the fug would spend $32,000 for a pontiac which loks like a $12k gtp that you buy used nowadays? Its all about the money and hte gto is just too damn much.

 

The wheelwells are too small, making it look like a $10K econobox AND it needs muscular fender bulges covering big fat rubber on 18's. Take a cue from AMG on muscularizing the E55 or copy the M3 in the fender area.

The trunk deal won't get fixed for a while.

The dissappointing performance (to some) will get fixed with the LS2.

And quit the price gouging.

They'll sell 30000 easy at MSRP.

 

Price and dealer markups are not the main issue as much as some people would like to think. It is the styling, as it lacks any with it's plain and boring looks. The problem is that people can't look at this car then look a real GTO and put them together. (and I don't mean that it needs to be all-out retro, but you need to see GTO in it somewhere) The car obviously needs scoops and more aggressive looks. Without things like this the car lacks credibility. I know people that could have bought the car and at MSRP, but they looked at it and said no. Why? Because of the styling.

Is the base price too high? IMO yes, but plenty others would pay for it if they liked it. I wouldn't wanna pay more than $28,000-$30,000 for that car, and even less since it is the gonna be the most boring GTO compared to the next models and is already an unpopular car.

 

again...look at a 69 camaro, and tell me where you see a 2nd, third or 4th gen in it outside of the name? If the GTO kept going after 74, which it did, just not in the US, it would have turned into a Monaro, but who knows. I think that if the GTO kept going, it would have turned into a larger, more luxurious sports coupe to the Firebirds agressive sports car stance.
Does the GTO need hood scoops? No, but I will agree that its styling isnt anything to write home about, but it doesnt look bad or horrible. Fender flares along with larger wheels and maybe a set of cool gfx and this would make it a much better car visualy.

 

I don't think it looks "bad" or "horrible". I think, like a lot of others, it looks pretty clean. But it simply looks too much like every other mid-sized Pontiac over the past........I don't know, several years. It simply doesn't stand out and shout "GTO". I will grant you that the original didn't either, but as has been said already in this thread, times change, and when someone says "GTO" now, they don't think Tempest - they think aggressive, fast, and unique. They might perceive incorrectly, but that is what they likely perceive.

From my standpoint, the styling is why it doesn't sell - simply because it doesn't jump out at you and say "I'm a GTO - I'm something special" (even if it really is a special car).

 

I disagree. You can look at every Gen Camaro and there is something about it on the exterior or interior that obviously says Camaro. The 2nd and 4th Gens (4ths especially) are a little difficult to see this in, but you can still see similar design themes from even the 1st Gen in all Camaros somewhere. On the GTO about the only thing is that it has 2 front grills, whoo hooo!

 

Thanks. I read the article. I'll be sure to consult a FINANCIAL site/mag the next time I'm looking for muscle car analysis/choice

As I've said, I don't dispute the sales are behind on any FLAT LINEAR projection to put 18k units out the door by 9/04 or even 12/04. However - (a) A full year of sales would end in 4/05 since 4/04 was when they started hitting dealers, and (b) Many GM cars are already heavily discounted today, how is that news? - and (c) a pure focus on SALES totally ignores the truly crucial parameter, average PROFIT on each sale. Don't know that little number, now do you?

Gee, sorry the GTO has not already sold 18k units to meet your demanding sales success standards ; as for owning one, I just bought an 04 GTP last year -- and since when does one have to buy a vehicle to be an enthusiast for it? I like the CTS-V too, but will likely never be able to afford a new one. Again, sorry cannot meet your demanding standards as a GTO or CTS-V enthusiast.

Hmm now that's a switch, since there are certainly significant numbers of Mazda RX8 owners disappointed with its oil and gas consumption and overrated engine... and G35 owners disappointed with its foibles as well. The GTO is built off a proven Holden product, thus avoiding most if not all of the typical new-model-teething problems.

How about ZERO? The current sales RATE and average transaction PRICE might not be all that much of a disappointment to GM execs. They do want sales to accelerate - witness the 0.9/36 recently begun - but clearly they are not desparate to boost the SALES rate right away. Why should they be? 02 LS1 Fbodys are still around on a few new dealer lots in the US. So what? It's a good customer draw to some dealers since it does pull folks into the showroom. Exactly what evidence do you have, showing the GTO is a PROFIT disaster or even a disappoinment for GM? hmmMM?

Hearsay, and on its face appears to be sorely lacking the context of what the person meant. Perhaps they were referring to the idea that GM wanted to fill a gap with the end of LS1 Fbody production and that the 05 GTO would/will be even better. In fact I believe it could have a drastically different meaning, even with one small change in the way spoken - such as if there was a pause before 'yet'. How can anyone here really know what that person meant?

This I agree with IMO

EXACTLY right. What evolution of the GTO is there to point to? Essentially none for 30 (30!) years. A LOT has changed since then. The styling of the new GTO has similarity to the hugely successful contemporary Grand Prix. It's sleek, understated, refined. Don't like it? There's a fake-hood-n-fender-scoop Mustang GT waiting for you

 

Agreed. Aside from hood scoops (which BTW, my dealer can install and paint this hood before delivery: http://www.newagegto.com/forum/index...gallery&id=137 ) there's very little outside the GTO badging to point to for 'heritage' cues... EXCEPT of course for a fire breathing V8 brimming over with power and torque

Disagree. The 04 GTO is loaded with muscle car styling cues. The badging, including the traditional front fender badge other drivers see and get intimidated by when you pull up beside them at a light... the large fog lights and gaping lower grille opening... lower valence ground effects... prominent spoiler... 17" flangeless wheels with 245-series tires... FOUR boldly colored and sculpted bucket seats... and unmistakeably strong V8 exhaust note. You'd have to be deaf and blind to fail to recognize it as pure muscle!

 

I (and many others) don't recognize it as a GTO. This, is the problem. A Camaro is usually recognizable as a Camaro, the GTO is a whole different thing.

I'm not counting things like emblems as cues, I'm counting styling. Anyone can throw on emblems and a bumper, which is exactly what GM did. There is not one thing on this car that says GTO interior or exterior STYLE-wise. After being gone all those years people wanna see connections between them. (the real ones and the new) To me the car says Monaro and that needs to change, and it will be changing. What they're doing with that HR454SS is what needs to happen with the GTO. You can recognize that car as a Chevelle and it's not all-out retro. Body panels need to be changed, bumpers, hood, rims, etc. This car is not being accepted as a GTO. It's really looking like bringing this car out without all it should've had instead of just waiting a year to make it right, was a mistake. People complained from the day they saw the first picture and now they are showing it with the sales, which are laughable, and rightfully so. Alot, including myself, said this would happen. I wouldn't be the fool buying that car new, especially when the 05 is gonna be how it should have been from the start. I think it's a good car, it just needs work. It can be a winner if done right and priced right.

 

I still don't see how that relates. The GTO was gone for over three decades. What was left after such a lapse, to connect up to memory wise? Why must we plug in to the exact stylistic formula (scoops for example) that was in place in 1970?

The new GTO's critical success criteria is that it has credence as a muscle car. If it also reminds folks of previous GTO's - that helps too (I believe it does, when you look at the bulk of the original GTO characteristics and those of the 2004). But the key determination is - is this car credible as real muscle? And of course it is! There is NO ONE who can say this car does not perform like a true muscle car. This based on the strict definition from www.musclecarclub.com :

The V6 Monaro is not a muscle car. Stuff in a 350 hp 5.7L V8 and enhance the suspension, wheels, badging, interior and exhaust... and by God you have got yourself a muscle car. What difference does it make, at that point, what it is called? It certainly DOES qualify as a GTO by then. For that matter... there are many muscle cars for example with NO hood scoops. 1998 Camaro Z28 for example. Too many people are going ga-ga over the lack of scoops on the GTO.

I do see a central conflict going on with some performance car fans and the new GTO. A lot are actually frustrated about the departure of the Trans Am and Firebird first and foremost, and secondarily about the perceived 'replacement' of it by a milder-looking GTO. People need to come to a realization - the Firebird, no matter how it resonated with a small group of buyers (including me! I still own one) -- was becoming more marginalized as time passed as being too 'over the top'. A lot of buyers today are looking for high performance, without the look-at-me-stud-man styling cues. The ideal GTO might have hood scoops as an optional package - like the LS1 Camaro Z28 vs SS. But as an alternative, I do see a silver lining to the current situation in that those who want a scoop-free new GTO can get an 04, and those who live and die by scoops can wait for an 05. Incidentally... why is no one raising a ruckus about the scoop-free 2005 Mustang GT?

I also can see how some complain about the weight and price of the new GTO as being in conflict with its 'muscle car status'. The site above even touches on this...

Some might say the 2004 GTO is more of a 'personal luxury car'. To that I'd have to respond that if so, then the 2002 Trans Am was as well since it came loaded with leather seats, 12-disk CD changer, t-tops and more. The price of an 04 GTO is virtually indistinguishable from that of an 02 WS6 but no one is ignorant enough to claim the WS6 was not a muscle car. As for weight - it seems we are splitting hairs debating whether the 3700 lb 04 GTO is a true muscle car, when one can also get a 4200 lb Merc Marauder, also claiming to be muscle

Now you're sounding like my Father-in-law, who sat out for many years while waiting to buy a PC. He kept saying... "well they keep getting cheaper. I'm going to wait for them to drop" and in the meantime, he missed out on increased productivity for his church activities and the internet's power to enhance his hobby of personal investing. Finally, a couple years ago, he got a PC and now swears by it (occasionally at it as well but that's another story).

Same is true with the new GTO. Sure - it would be nice to wait til the 05's are out. I've heard the 2007 will better than the 05's too. Why not wait for the 2011 GTO? I'll bet it will have rocket assist pods for better 1/4 mile times

 

OK, so how does GM make a connection with the previous GTOs 30 years later? Indeed, are we talking the Tempest/LeMans based GTO of 64, 65-67, those of 68-72, the colonnade 73's or the lowly Ventura based GTO mercifully killed after 74? What is your starting point for direct lineage to a new GTO? Not overt enough, you say... here's a bit of a newsflash, the classic car wasn't particularly overt... many Mopars were way more overt than the GTO. Looks like other Pontiacs... so did the classic... and shouldn't it? You know, some purists have said that the GTO died when the 68 redesign came out, after all, sales began to decline that year. So even within the camp of die-hards there is dissention, even regarding the beloved classic.

As far as I'm concerned the new GTO is spot on as a starting point. I think it fits the bill, its understated as was the classic - excepting the Judge and although it may not "look like a GTO(?)" it sure as hell performs better and with greater safety than any stock GTO before it. With it's equipment level and upscale appointments maybe it's more than a "GTO" should be. Therein lies the problem, it's upscale and so is the price - perhaps a tad too much. The price is a little off-putting; especially if dealers are over-zealous in their expectations with regards to what they think they can get, money-wise for it. As someone said, it would be a killer deal at 27US, but at 33, well...

The only tangible things that really bother me about the actual car are the gas tank location and the spoiler. I'd like scoops, but, they're not there so that wouldn't kill any deal. Oh, and my favourite gripe - not legal for sale above the 49th.

I'm not bashing the classic GTO, as I have said in a previous post I'd love to have a 69 or 70 Judge, but I'd also love to have the new one. As for people bemoaning the passing of the F cars (and we all miss them), I dont, IMHO, consider the new GTO a direct replacement for the Firebird. It's a move into a whole new territory for Pontiac and a good move, in my opinion.

 

OK...it's time for me to formally divorce myself from the GTO bashers.....

My complaint from day one was the lack of the one styling cue that ALL GTO's had...hood scoops.....(well that and the cancer of corporate styling)....

Other than the odd rear 1/4 proportion that makes the rear wheels look like 15's (just a personal gripe), I think the 2005 models will correct ALL remaining oversights and it's time to move on.


BTW, I think this car is darned near a PERFECT modern day GTO.

http://www.newagegto.com/forum/index...gallery&id=137

Bring on the '05s!

 

I was!

So, where were "ALL" these F-body owners in 2001 & 2002 when the only Camaro selling was the $30,000 SS and the Firebird LS1s were being outsold by Corvettes?

WRONGO!

Cars for sale in California have to be certified for California. I believe there is a vehicle code that identifies this on the car. Before you say "That's just California", remember that other states, especially in the North east, follow California's standard, including Pennsylvania & New York for statrers.

Out of state cars registered in California used to have a $300 registration supplement. I think that's gone now, but there is still paperwork involved in bringing an out of state car to California (and I'm assuming to any state that follows California's emission standards).

Besides, I wouldn't drive hundreds (or in this case, thousands) of miles just to buy a car even if the place was selling brand new Z06s for $30,000.

 

You would pay an extra $15k to avoid an $800 delivery fee??