GTO a failure?
Registered User
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,368
From: OR
I don't think thats the way it should go. If Pontiac is really trying to compete with BMW or at least imporve its image,I don't agree putting out cheaper decontented car is the way to go.
This car has to persuade the mass's perception of "yes, the quality, inside and out, this car is worth $30k" .. not even taking in account that it has a healthy 350 hp V8 in it.
The rest of the car line is going to have to fall in line too, especially in consumer perception.
For example, when someone buys a BMW 5 or 7 series.. do they think, "eww. this looks like a lowly $27k 3 series?"
no, if anything its more like, "hey cool, this 3 series looks like tha more expensive 5 and 7 brothers.."
This car has to persuade the mass's perception of "yes, the quality, inside and out, this car is worth $30k" .. not even taking in account that it has a healthy 350 hp V8 in it.
The rest of the car line is going to have to fall in line too, especially in consumer perception.
For example, when someone buys a BMW 5 or 7 series.. do they think, "eww. this looks like a lowly $27k 3 series?"
no, if anything its more like, "hey cool, this 3 series looks like tha more expensive 5 and 7 brothers.."
Originally posted by SharpShooter_SS
I understand where you're coming from and all of what you say is very true but, what I quoted from you're post hit me as a possible key.
A GTO for every budget and purpose. It would be hard to argue that the current car is is anything, if not focused at least in presentation. That's it, an all encompassing package that at 32 and change is the GTO. Maybe the solution is a de-contented car for a lower price of entry, similar to Chrysler's Pacifica which also suffered tepid sales until a lower cost option appeared. Just thinking out loud...
I understand where you're coming from and all of what you say is very true but, what I quoted from you're post hit me as a possible key.
A GTO for every budget and purpose. It would be hard to argue that the current car is is anything, if not focused at least in presentation. That's it, an all encompassing package that at 32 and change is the GTO. Maybe the solution is a de-contented car for a lower price of entry, similar to Chrysler's Pacifica which also suffered tepid sales until a lower cost option appeared. Just thinking out loud...
Prominent Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
I honestly think that the improvements for 2005 will "fix" the GTO's problems...but ONLY if the dealers get off their high horses and sell them at a reasonable price.
It's just too bad that GM instead of rationalizing the short-comings would have done it right (they knew they didn't, just too cheap to admit it) the first time....you don''t get a second chance at first impressions these days.
IF the '05 has the look of the Autocross model on the show circuit w/ said hood scoops...it'll be fine.
It's just too bad that GM instead of rationalizing the short-comings would have done it right (they knew they didn't, just too cheap to admit it) the first time....you don''t get a second chance at first impressions these days.
IF the '05 has the look of the Autocross model on the show circuit w/ said hood scoops...it'll be fine.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 745
From: New Jersey
I think to add on to what I was saying before....
GM aimed too high with this.... If they badged it as a Caddy, it would do alot better, a 2 door caddy coupe, sweet. But fact is they named it GTO, it is a Pontiac for crying out load, and they want this to compete with BMW...lol. When would a BMW shopper bother looking at a Pontiac? When have you see a BMW or Mercedes shopper in a GM showroom? Besides buying a second vehicle.
The GTO is wrongly marketed. If they wanted this to be a sales hit.....Lower the damn price!! This car is better than an Fbody, but should be at an Fbody price, if this car was at $25,000, I would consider it and likely buy it, add a few ground effects and should look better, bigger wheels. But I am not going to spend $30,000 on a Pontiac, lets repeat....Not going to spend $30,000 on a pontiac when for $30,000 I can buy a nice BMW which is a year or two used, hell you can buy an M3 for that price.
GM aimed too high with this.... If they badged it as a Caddy, it would do alot better, a 2 door caddy coupe, sweet. But fact is they named it GTO, it is a Pontiac for crying out load, and they want this to compete with BMW...lol. When would a BMW shopper bother looking at a Pontiac? When have you see a BMW or Mercedes shopper in a GM showroom? Besides buying a second vehicle.
The GTO is wrongly marketed. If they wanted this to be a sales hit.....Lower the damn price!! This car is better than an Fbody, but should be at an Fbody price, if this car was at $25,000, I would consider it and likely buy it, add a few ground effects and should look better, bigger wheels. But I am not going to spend $30,000 on a Pontiac, lets repeat....Not going to spend $30,000 on a pontiac when for $30,000 I can buy a nice BMW which is a year or two used, hell you can buy an M3 for that price.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
Well, I don't know about you, but I'm not going 500+ miles just to get a fair price on a car. I'll just buy one of the 5,000 other cars out there. To not acknowledge that the automotive market and automotive lanscape is vastly different in Michigan is just Detroit Think. The same Detroit Think that got the Big 3 in trouble in the first place...
...Detroit think.... the mindset where everybody drives American cars and doesn't see the real competitive landscape that the rest of the people in the other 49 states see. Where most people - especially those that work for the auto companies (due to the discounts) only keep a car 2 years or so and thus don't have to deal with the long term reliability that the rest of us have to deal with. They'll swear that everyting is bullet proof reliable, though. I've lived in Michigan. I've worked in the industry. There is (often for good reason) a completely different view on cars and the auto industry not shared with the rest of the US. Sometimes though, it was downright scary.
...Detroit think.... the mindset where everybody drives American cars and doesn't see the real competitive landscape that the rest of the people in the other 49 states see. Where most people - especially those that work for the auto companies (due to the discounts) only keep a car 2 years or so and thus don't have to deal with the long term reliability that the rest of us have to deal with. They'll swear that everyting is bullet proof reliable, though. I've lived in Michigan. I've worked in the industry. There is (often for good reason) a completely different view on cars and the auto industry not shared with the rest of the US. Sometimes though, it was downright scary.
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,557
From: Dallas, Texas
In my opinion, the GTO doesn't live up to its name. I'm young and didn't live through the 60s or 70s so I have a different perspective than many other people here perhaps.
To me, a GTO is supposed to be outrageously styled, close to the point of being overdone or ugly, that is what I always thought of the old ones. When I heard the GTO was being brought back, I expected a long, low to the ground car that looked gaudier than a 2002 Trans Am with all the doodads and options. But instead, we get a car that is just as boring as a BMW 3 series or a Grand Am with all the wrinkles ironed out.
When I went to the local Pontiac dealership and checked out the GTO, sat in it, walked around it, etc. I was less than impressed. I remember the rear end being extremely high for a sports car, probably a whole foot higher than a Camaro's. I was also disappointed to see single exhaust on it, I don't care what it was, whether it was dual exhaust brought to one side or what it was, it wasn't split in two like a Camaro's or Trans Am's so I was instantly dissatisfied.
The GTO could have come back far worse, the Cougar came back several years ago (did it ever really leave?), and while I liked the way it looked, it was front wheel drive and underpowered; I also hear that it drove like crap. At least the GTO came back with a good engine and rear wheel drive. All that said, it seems to me that the GTO is currently competing with the Monte Carlo, it looks like an easy NASCAR conversion to me. I'm just not interested in being Jeff Gordon, so the GTO doesn't appeal to me.
To me, a GTO is supposed to be outrageously styled, close to the point of being overdone or ugly, that is what I always thought of the old ones. When I heard the GTO was being brought back, I expected a long, low to the ground car that looked gaudier than a 2002 Trans Am with all the doodads and options. But instead, we get a car that is just as boring as a BMW 3 series or a Grand Am with all the wrinkles ironed out.
When I went to the local Pontiac dealership and checked out the GTO, sat in it, walked around it, etc. I was less than impressed. I remember the rear end being extremely high for a sports car, probably a whole foot higher than a Camaro's. I was also disappointed to see single exhaust on it, I don't care what it was, whether it was dual exhaust brought to one side or what it was, it wasn't split in two like a Camaro's or Trans Am's so I was instantly dissatisfied.
The GTO could have come back far worse, the Cougar came back several years ago (did it ever really leave?), and while I liked the way it looked, it was front wheel drive and underpowered; I also hear that it drove like crap. At least the GTO came back with a good engine and rear wheel drive. All that said, it seems to me that the GTO is currently competing with the Monte Carlo, it looks like an easy NASCAR conversion to me. I'm just not interested in being Jeff Gordon, so the GTO doesn't appeal to me.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 0
The low sales are due to the car's styling...at least around here. My dad was so excited when he heard about the new GTO...he even had the dealership in town get one so he could buy it asap. He loved the fact that it was going to be a 350 hp LS1 coupe, and the GTO name is what made him want the car so much. Then, he saw the actual car. Just one look helped him make up his mind - no sale. He said that it was just too plain looking..."looks like a honda or somethin to me." If the car had been styled more aggressively, chances are there would be a GTO in our garage right now.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 189
Originally posted by Brangeta
At least the GTO came back with a good engine and rear wheel drive. All that said, it seems to me that the GTO is currently competing with the Monte Carlo, it looks like an easy NASCAR conversion to me. I'm just not interested in being Jeff Gordon, so the GTO doesn't appeal to me.
At least the GTO came back with a good engine and rear wheel drive. All that said, it seems to me that the GTO is currently competing with the Monte Carlo, it looks like an easy NASCAR conversion to me. I'm just not interested in being Jeff Gordon, so the GTO doesn't appeal to me.
LOL
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 859
From: AR (PA born and fled)
Originally posted by Brangeta
In my opinion, the GTO doesn't live up to its name. I'm young and didn't live through the 60s or 70s so I have a different perspective than many other people here perhaps.
To me, a GTO is supposed to be outrageously styled, close to the point of being overdone or ugly, that is what I always thought of the old ones. When I heard the GTO was being brought back, I expected a long, low to the ground car that looked gaudier than a 2002 Trans Am with all the doodads and options.
In my opinion, the GTO doesn't live up to its name. I'm young and didn't live through the 60s or 70s so I have a different perspective than many other people here perhaps.
To me, a GTO is supposed to be outrageously styled, close to the point of being overdone or ugly, that is what I always thought of the old ones. When I heard the GTO was being brought back, I expected a long, low to the ground car that looked gaudier than a 2002 Trans Am with all the doodads and options.
How are these outrageously styled, overdone, or ugly? Aggressive, yes...but certainly NOT gaudy.1965 GTO
1967 GTO
1968 GTO
1970 GTO
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 189
Styling is probably my biggest argument with the GTO. Most of you seem to think the style is lacking... I for one think the front could be more aggressive, but its certainly a very nice, sleek, hot looking car IMHO.
For my taste, I want the auto-x, drift car body kit that I've seen on TV...... but, I think the stock car is pretty nice by today's standards. Certainly not a BMW, Mercedes, or a Porsche, but its definately nice for what the big 3 typically put out.
For my taste, I want the auto-x, drift car body kit that I've seen on TV...... but, I think the stock car is pretty nice by today's standards. Certainly not a BMW, Mercedes, or a Porsche, but its definately nice for what the big 3 typically put out.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
How are these outrageously styled, overdone, or ugly? Aggressive, yes...but certainly NOT gaudy.
Gads you people are mighty harsh. Talk is cheap. How many here ever really were on the market for an 04 muscle car? I've got a feeling a lot are just jumping on the bandwagon of this popular pastime, bashing GM wherever the slightest mistake is made. Here in fact, I believe the biggest mistake has been made by the dealers not GM anyway. Dealers were the culprits who misjudged the true price of the 04 GTO. It's all a matter of price - the car will sell just fine once the right price is on it.
We are saying the prices will drop on the 04 GTO once the 05's start hitting the lots. I agree with this, but now think about the next step... how many buyers are out there, and what will happen to demand for the 05's if 15,000 buyers suddenly jump into '04's? It's like damming a river - there's upstream and downstream effects on a car when you surge the supply/demand chain. Will the 05's begin to stack up like the 04's did? Will dealers try to gouge the 05 buyer due to the new styling/HP?
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,557
From: Dallas, Texas
I wasn't using outrageously styled to the point of almost being ugly or gaudy as an insult, it was more a compliment although it doesn't sound like it. The old GTOs, especially the Judge, are really strange looking in my opinion. Just as a 4th gen Trans Am is really strange looking compared to a 4th gen Camaro.
I think Pontiac should have kept that in mind when designing (perhaps redesigning/modifying the Holden?) it. There are many cars I would describe as "outrageously styled to the point of almost being ugly or gaudy". Here are some examples...
TVR T350
TVR T350-rear
Lotus Elise
Marcos Mantis
The GTO came back too timid, it's like comparing a 1970s Chevelle/Malibu to a current Malibu.
I think Pontiac should have kept that in mind when designing (perhaps redesigning/modifying the Holden?) it. There are many cars I would describe as "outrageously styled to the point of almost being ugly or gaudy". Here are some examples...
TVR T350
TVR T350-rear
Lotus Elise
Marcos Mantis
The GTO came back too timid, it's like comparing a 1970s Chevelle/Malibu to a current Malibu.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 361
From: Connecticut
You cannot get a Monaro for 20k, more like 40k and thats for a 302hp model. If the GTO was going to "fly off showrooms", GM would have planned for more then 18k units a year.
When the GTO was first announced it was coming out the exchange rate was much different. THe Aussie dollar was ALOT weaker and you could get an LS1 Monaro for $20k US.
On your second point, GM could not just order any number of cars they wanted. They took what they thought was a safe number. By your own statement GM ordered 18k cars and are on track to sell half of them with winter and a new mustang approaching. Look for the HEAVY incentives to dump the remaining units and they will try to save face with 400hp and some scoops. What is the price going to be then $40K???? Yea, that will help sales next year.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Originally posted by GN1270
Wrong and Wrong.
When the GTO was first announced it was coming out the exchange rate was much different. THe Aussie dollar was ALOT weaker and you could get an LS1 Monaro for $20k US.
On your second point, GM could not just order any number of cars they wanted. They took what they thought was a safe number. By your own statement GM ordered 18k cars and are on track to sell half of them with winter and a new mustang approaching. Look for the HEAVY incentives to dump the remaining units and they will try to save face with 400hp and some scoops. What is the price going to be then $40K???? Yea, that will help sales next year.
Wrong and Wrong.
When the GTO was first announced it was coming out the exchange rate was much different. THe Aussie dollar was ALOT weaker and you could get an LS1 Monaro for $20k US.
On your second point, GM could not just order any number of cars they wanted. They took what they thought was a safe number. By your own statement GM ordered 18k cars and are on track to sell half of them with winter and a new mustang approaching. Look for the HEAVY incentives to dump the remaining units and they will try to save face with 400hp and some scoops. What is the price going to be then $40K???? Yea, that will help sales next year.
The GTO was a number that GM, Holden and the UAW came up with so that all sides would be happy. No, they arent selling well for whatever reason, be it styling, be it dealers or whatever. What I ment is if GM wanted this to be a high-volume seller, then they would have planned for such.