When we first heard the GTO was going to be made from the Holden Monaro, everyone, including me, went to Holdens site to see the car, and see how much it cost. I specifically remember everyone , including me, figure a pretty loaded one was in the $27k range, and many thought the GTO would be in the $29-$30k range, but then the Aussie dollar started to recover.

 

I also remember alot of people buying into the rumor of a $36K CTS-V. I can see that $50K+ MSRP didn't stop you from buying, but for me it killed the credibility of the Corvette-powered Caddy. Similarly, if the GTO had been $27K, I would have looked past some of it's obvious defects.

 

Don't know who was stupid enough to think a CTSV would be $36k when it is a loaded CTS (which cost $42k) with a ZO6 drive train, better suspension and huge brakes. Link me to one of those threads. I have a Darwin award for em.

 

Please. More of the jaded-GM-cynic mentality. So the CTS-V is too much? Baloney. It's thousands less than its comparable competitors. And the GTO? This is a better car than the FBody, for about the same price as a loaded WS6. Every car has 'obvious defects' if you are eager to find them, which apparently you are.

 

Unfortunately, a loaded F-body was overpriced, too. That's why they didn't sell in huge numbers (although with zero advertising on a 9 year old platform, SS and WS6 f-bodies did sell in similar volume as the original projected GTO volume ) I've driven a GTO, and I thought it was a pretty decent car. I just think it is overpriced. I don't think I'm the only one, as the car isn't lighting up sales charts.

 

"Better" is quite subjective when it comes to new cars, and a "better" car doesn't mean it will sell. For example, most folks here will say that the LS1 F-body was a "better" car than the same year Mustangs. However, it was consistently outsold by an "inferior" car. The reasons have been beaten to death here and elsewhere, and I have no desire to bring it up again except to make the point about "better" not getting the job done....and the fact that your "better" and my "better" are likely (almost certainly) not the same.

Given the choice, I'd take a WS6 over a GTO. Personal preference ('better' yet, give me a Formula).

 

OK, here are some questions that I have seen neither asked nor an answer stated for your consideration. When is the 05 Goat to debut? Will the car roll out during the traditional model-year changes in September/October, or be held back since the 04s really didn't show up until January?

If GM is having trouble clearing the 04 off the lots, it obviously isn't wise to stock up on the "improved" 05 cars, since the 04s will still be hangin' around. If they couldn't sell them before the 05s appeared, surely they will have a harder time selling them after the fact, without very attractive rebates. Personally, I hope the sales pick up and the GTO get's its day in the sun. Such an overall good car (by most accounts) deserves to be a winner. If not, I really hope GM doesn't get gunshy about performance coupes. My last two cars have been 4 door cars, but I still prefer coupes.

 

 

Obviously, and I think you and I have some agreement on this, this is just my subjective opinion. If I'd instead said "polls and objective analysis prove the GTO is better" then I'd be trying to suppose a fact without offering proof. Clearly, IMHO the GTO is a better car - having owned 4gen Firebirds and having driven an 04 GTO. The GTO (IMO, guess I'll have to start liberally specifying that now for some readers ) has better:

1. Engine - torque, power
2. Refined, contemporary styling in keeping with "American-BMW" marketing thrust at Pontiac
3. Rear legroom by far, without sacrificing rear headroom
4. Ergonomics, Eg, driver info center below speedo/tach, plus in-dash CD changer
5. Build quality, eg panel gaps are smaller and leather is upscale
6. Interior color choices including some bold ones
7. Engine access especially for the rearmost cylinders
8. Stock exhaust sound (I replaced the muffler on EVERY 4gen Firebird I have ever owned due to its overly mild note (IMO )
9. Improved rear quarter visibility (no thick B-pillar)
10. Improved and unique stock 17" wheels (again, I replaced the stock wheels on EVERY 4gen I have owned).
11. Improved suspension - IRS
12. Engine styling - eg, stylized, GTO-unique rocker covers
13. Rear seats - beautiful, ergonomic, adjustable-headrest buckets seats matching the front for a true 2+2 look
14. Front seats - more supportive and versatile than those on the fbody.

I love my Formula - but there are a LOT of ways the new GTO is better. Anyone who doesn't think so is kidding themselves.

 

If only the GTO looked more like that...

 

Your comparing a GTO to a pony car. The GTO is heavier and thusly rides alot differently. It may have more HP but the weight keeps it in line with f-body performance, and maybe even lags behind a little. My CTSV at 400hp has about the same performance as my 03 350hp vette did, but rides alot differently.

 

I believe its perfectly valid to compare any two vehicles in a similar class. The 'pony car' designation is a relic from the 1960's... while in reality today, both the 4gen LS1 Fbody and the 04 GTO are RWD V8 2+2 muscle cars. Personally I'd gladly trade off a couple hundred pounds for the bigger rear legroom alone, but an IRS also comes with the package. The IRS gives the GTO a clear and unmistakeable advantage in real-world road handling.

 

Yes the GTO may be better, but the point is, it is not selling BETTER. Obviously it may be a great overall car, but not for the price, and it CERTAINLY will not be on BMW/Mercedes/Audi level while wearing a GTO. This is like comparing a corvette to a Ferrari Modena 360.

 

Sure there's some agreement - but some disagreement to. For example, using your list, I see it more like this...

1. Engine power is virtually identical (even "under the curve"). Power to weight favors the F-body.
2. The styling is more "Grand Prix" than "BMW" IMHO. Bland, to put it bluntly.
3. No doubt there is more room in the back.
4. The dash stuff isn't an issue for me. More of a "gee whiz". Personally, I don't care for the color-coordination thing.
5. The build quality likely is better. Not a big fan of leather.
6. I like dark, single tone interiors. Flashy, two-tone stuff turns me off completely.
7. Certainly couldn't imagine having the rearmost cylinders being any worse. I guess that's a plus.
8. Haven't paid much attention to exhaust sound. Certainly the F-body left something to be desired, and I know GM made an effort to make the GTO sound good.
9. Rear quarter visibility sucked in my T/A. This would be a pleasant change.
10. I can do with or without the wheels. Some like em, some don't. 17" wheels were available on the F-body, so not an issue to me.
11. Been down the IRS road. I'm much more drag-race oriented. An IRS simply adds weight. No thanks.
12. Engine styling? Come on. Some of your points are good. This one is.....well.....not.
13. Already been through the rear seats above.
14. Can't comment here, as I haven't spent any time in the GTO seats. However, considering I replaced my Cobra seats with cloth units out of a V6, you can likely summize this isn't much of an issue for me. Still, I'm sure they are improved.

Color me "kidding myself" if you like, but my preference still stands. It is no better or worse than your preference. Just different.

One other quick point....if the 'Pony Car' designation is a "relic from the 60's", what is the 'Muscle Car' designation? Which one dates the other?

 

It was never meant to sell better. The sales goal put out by GM (a mistake for them to detail IMO since now everyone's a Monday morning quarterback ) was only about 18,000 units, less than the LS1 Fbodys typical annual run. The GTO IS a great overall car ( IMO ) at its sticker price, and becomes a very good performance value upon discounting - which has already begun. For example they are already offering the 0.9/36 financing. Corvette to a Modena? Bring it on. GM's quality surpasses that of Ferrari by a significant margin now. And the Corvette is multiples less in price. Same if you decide to for example, compare a GTO with an M3 BMW at nearly TWICE the price, with less power and tq than the GTO.

Bob C - looks like we agree on some points, and our different values in performance cars are clear too. I drive every day on curvy two-lane roads, including some with bumps and holes. I very seldom go to the strip. Thus I find the IRS to be a significant feature. I also go to car shows and am in clubs where we show off our cars with the hood up... and I still think its cool what they did for the GTO engine. Plus if you look at the history of muscle cars, bold colors have been a big part of them and frankly it was one area of disappointment I had with the LS1 4gens - the vast majority have a rather dull dark gray monotone shade throughout the interior. The GTO is the most colorful muscle car from GM in over a decade - maybe two decades.