For the record, Loren Pontiac in Glenview IL sold me my red/red 6spd GTO for 2k AND CHANGE under sticker almost three months ago. Many Chicago land dealers were dealing om GTO's since day one. I have seen many GTO's on the road (21 I keep a tab) in Chicago. Ohair Pontiac was going to take 1k off the second one they got in. I moved to Houston and I have seen none besides mine on the road but the local dealers have 4 or more sitting out front. They want a little over sticker.

 

Like this :

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/hsvcoupe403_01.jpg

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/h...e403_inter.jpg

 

GN1270, you bring up alot of good points. I disagree with you on alot of them, but this would be a pretty dull place if we all agreed on everything.

The same can be said for the GTO Judge, the Plymouth Superbird, and Charger Daytona. All were flops in the marketplace in their day, yet within a decade, their prices started going up. Any of those cars today is a better investment than real estate.

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Your telling me you like something about Pontiacs 16 year old styling and that GM doesn't wait way too long to change their styling? How bout this. It looks like any late 80's and 90's style GM.

OK, I'll give you that.
Why do I like the styling? I like sleepers.

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Adding IRS wasn't new. The Monaro had it before the GTO, as was the chassis, and I imagine the new Camaro would not be on its own personal chassis. LS2's like I said will be more expensive in the warranty department. Ever build a race car?...

Are you still are saying that a few feet of pipe is going to affect the price of a car more than adding IRS???

Also, how exactly is the LS2 going to be more expensive in the warranty department? Are you saying that the LS2 engine is less dependable than the LS1, despite the fact that it is essentially a truck engine with LS6 heads? I don't need to build a race car to know that the General Motors Corperation Powertrain Division isn't a bunch of yahoos in a backyard shed doing computations on a slide ruler, or that a company isn't going to replace an item with another that is going to cost them more to produce or warranty.

You're really reaching here.

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My point being that it used to be alot cheaper to have a car built down under a year and a half ago.

I'll give you that point. But if money concious GM still isn't concerned enough to hit the rebate button yet, I'm guessing there's a reason.

Actually he's a car guy of the 1st degree. The guy could have retired when he left Chrysler (he's in his 70s for chrissake! ), and lived off the hundreds of millions he's squrrelled away over the past decade alone. Yet GM gave him a chance to lead their comback, and completely run all new product development.

Now, tell me YOU wouldn't jump at that job for reasons outside of money or ego!

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So GM is gouging us? Why did they not pass on the savings?...

To protect the profits on the car in case of fluxuating currency exchange rates... there's a reason for everything at GM. Even if it's questionable.

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They wanted it here fast because they had no other sports car besides the Vette. They could have brought it here years ago.

There was actually a contingent sent to Holden to work on getting a Statesman, an El Camino, and a 'V' based Camaro back in the 90s. The new GM regime squashed that in favor of our existing FWD chassis.

The ideas that's attributed to Bob Lutz regarding Holden selling cars here or creating cars for the US market had already been initiated and had been laying dormant for years when he got there. He just simply brought those plans back to life, after GM's "Proctor & Gamble" management team was replaced with internal GM people.

BTW: GTO replaces the Grand Prix GTP coupe, so you can't really call it a sports car.

Doubtful. He's been in the business longer than I've been alive, so he's probally been through it all...many times. He's also a risk taker with *****. Look at the Plymouth Prowler.

It's as improbable that low sales of a low production car like the GTO would leave him any more redfaced than I'd be if my stomach growled while sitting in the bathroom.

 

What good does a cars value do for GM 10 years later?

Its not the motor, its the transmission and rear end. With the amount of low end torque the LS2 is supposed to have and the weight of the GTO, the transmission and rear end will problably have to be beefed up, and I'm curious to see if GM even has an auto tranny that can handle that. The Vettes tranny is pulling 400lb + less weight, that is when things start breaking. Its deffinately not a reach, its a reality of adding alot of torque and HP to an already heavy car.

As for him being red faced, The GTO is also a high profile car. He will be tattood for it.


As for the original question of the post. Yes, the GTO is failing. For whatever reason it is not selling near as well as GM or their dealerships had hoped or planned.

 

the way GM is doing it , is the safe way.

even if not another single car sold for '04 , it wouldn't cost GM big bucks at all.

the fact is the U.S. public wouldv'e pretty much complained regarding anything that came over from another country to claim the name GTO, so i see this car as an ice-breaker, sure they knew there would be an uproar, next year the '05 looks to make more friends... it all takes time.

By the time the VE based platform vehicles appear , , you will all bow to "LUTZ".

its the VE that can't afford to fail.

 

Plenty. Why do you suppose they are going to revive the Charger nameplate? There's a ton of brand equity tied up in that name. And it will help sell the new one. "Judge" doesn't fit the direction GM wants to take the new GTO, or GM would be making all kind of concessions to get rights for that too.

Seriously, you believe this? He doesn't care nor does he still have anything to prove at this stage of things. GM brought him on to take some chances, with full knowledge some of his results would be better than others. As Ude-lose and others have stated, the 05 GTO will get a much more friendly reception - and this is a better context in which to judge his efforts.

A lot of Camaro and muscle car fans do not realize how self-defeating all this GTO cynicism can be for the overall crusade towards modern affordable RWD V8 muscle car offerings. Why should GM, or any carmaker for that matter, put out a 2007 Camaro, GTO, El Camino or so similar car, if potential buyers are so fickle about small things on a car such as its hood scoops and dual exhaust tips? All this pickiness does is make it more difficult for proponents to advocate programs and give opponents ammo to say "see? you'll never sell xx,xxx units of that car, just look how ultra-picky those buyers are!"

Baloney. A FAILURE is something which has no hope regardless of available options. It's fair to call the GTO sales level (as we now see it) disappointing (BTW you never answered my profit question there, did you?). But simple price adjustments by dealers and GM will have these cars moving out at high speed as they are well-equipped to do

 

I can't keep repeating myself, but if you think Lutz wanted this mark on his resume' you are wrong.

As for your profit question, I have heard GM is losing money on the GTO at sticker. I don't bring this up because I do not know what kind of profit they are working on with it. You guys can spin it any way you want to, In any business class in any university in any country, it is a failure. Is it a success if they sell all 18k units for $10k each tomorrow? Don't know why you keep bringing up the 05 when we are discussing the 04 sales, but while we are at it, how many 05 units are they going to sell?

 

Clearly he would have preferred the car to sell better. I still think though, he and those helping bring the GTO here did a pretty good job at getting it here this quickly. They have paved the way as well for getting the 05's here, with their enhanced engines and styling, as well. Of course, none of this will be enough for some folks....

(I like the new rolleyes emoticon... maybe I will use it more )

Well, I've 'heard' they are profitable since they are from an already-designed Monaro. Whose hearsay is better? You do state there though that you don't know their profit goals so in a way you did answer my question.

I've had marketing classes. They speak of four product types, Stars, Cash Cows, Dogs and Question Marks. To be a dog, a product has to be an unequivocal failure for which there is no hope of recovery. A Question Mark is something for which the jury is still out due to its newness. The Toyota T100 was a dog and was discontinued. The GTO is a Question Mark and has not been discontinued, in fact they are enhancing it for 05 and an all-new version will be coming after that according to this and other boards.

I don't know. Why don't you ask GM their criteria for 'success'? None of us know that do we? The arrival of the 05's at dealers, or press releases about the 05 GTO, will be the first concrete signs of GM's direction and planning for the car. If they thought it were a failure, I have serious doubts they would be pursuing a new improved version... why not just throw in the towel?

If they have the improvements mentioned, I believe they will sell a lot more units. Of course by then, the cynics will find something new to complain about, such as not liking the tire valve caps

 

Does anybody realize we are talking about " The return of the GTO"? Same motor as the Vette? 350hp? OBVIOUSLY GM, and their dealers thought the car was going to sell so well that they deceided to mark up the price to $33k and dealers added a fee on top of that. I'm still not so sure about their profit when the aussie dollar has recovered about 25% against the greenback since they announced the car. If there are archives on this board, go back and see how I defended the car and was going to buy one , even when the picture came out. It wasn't until I saw one in person that I personally wasn't impressed. Maybe the car would be more attractive with a $28k sticker and maybe knocking $2k off at the dealership, but with the "return of the GTO" that shouldn't have to happen, especially with no f-body to compete against. If the car is so much better than an f-body, why have they only sold 10% of what an f-body sold in their worse years? I know, I know, they will magically sell in the next 5 months competing against the new Mustang. We all complain that GM never listens to us when we tell them what we want, so why can't you guys listen to all the people telling you they do not like the "old school" 90's styling on the car? That has been the complaint since day 1 since the picture was released.

 

The GTO hasnt sold well because GM is marketing to the same stupid lame hicks who think that its ok for a car to rattle and be built like crap for an extra 10th of the QM. It is a every day car with *****. I love mine. It has better fir and finish than my C5 vettes of the past.

 

I really don't think GM is marketing the GTO to the F-body crowd. My car isn't built like crap, although I wouldn't consider it a high-quality build either. Yes, my car has rattles, but who I don't care. It's not a luxury car and I certainly didn't buy it for that. I suppose that would make me a stupid lame hick.

 

The GTO does not have the build quality of a BMW or Mercedes. The C5 does. Nothing rattles on a C5, never seen one with bad or wide body seams. It is an extremely tight well built car. Tell us what is better on the GTO build quality wise as compared to your C5's. Please be specific.

As for marketing, tell us how with a $33k price tag they are marketing to the f-body crowd? I've seen at least 2 GTO commercials over 30 times on TV, I've seen tons of print ads in many magazines. GM is advertising the hell out of the GTO. More than it has ever done for a Vette, or an f-body. The GTO has had every chance to sell, and it hasn't.

 

I don't know any Camaro owner that thinks it's particularly "OK" to have rattles. I mean when you have tight suspension you kinda expect things like that after a while but that statement was pure ignorance. Not only that, it was incorrect because they haven't been marketing it to the F-Body crowd. Maybe when they start they'll get some sales, since it's a musclecar that will only be getting more muscular in appearance and performance. Sounds alot like what musclecar buyers/F-Body guys want huh? I know that they don't want boring looks and personality. The sales and critisizms have proved this.

 

You drive in a thirdgen. Most of the thirdgens that I've owned and rode in have made the rattles on my fourth-gen seem quite minor in comparison. And where did I say that it was "OK" for the F-body to have rattles? I just stated that I didn't care about the rattles in my car. It's a flaw that I accept. You actually made up a fictitious statement, then claimed ingnorance on my part because of your made up statement.

 

Tell me again, how this is so different from a 2002 WS6 for $32k? I'd say the $1k more (STICKER) is a small price to pay for the advantages I listed earlier such as the rear legroom and IRS.

This is simply not true. Repeating it ad infinitum will not make it so. The GTO IS selling, just not at levels satisfactory to you. Why do you continue saying it?