Ohhhhhhhh! From your experiences ay? And how and where did you get those experiences? If you had more experiences...would your views stay the same?
I don't consider myself "old"...but since you do...let someone "old" give you some advise: When you shoot yourself in the foot...do not reload and shoot again.... Or how about this one... When you're digging yourself into a hole....STOP DIGGING!



Oh, I know it's aimed at me alright. I'm not afraid to say what I mean. That ruffles feathers...especially around here. I'd rather say what I feel...and mean what I say, than get a pat on the head, (it's a good feeling f79...really it is...you should try it sometime). You single me out because I'm not afraid to say that GM is not infallible...and can do better. You hide like a coward behind the term "nostalgist" You pretend to be progressive...but you are merely assimilated into the "company line".

Here's something that was once said by someone REALLY old.

"Disruptive people are an asset. You ignore disruptive people at your peril. These people are "change agents"(that's the polite term). And change agents aren't supposed to be liked. They're supposed to effect change, which never is an easy or attractive undertaking.Their ranks include many illustrious figures whose rough edges have been smoothed by history: Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, Admiral Rickover, Billy Mitchell, and if we were to reach further back, a fair number of the Founding Fathers (a.k.a. revolutionaries)."

That's a quote by an old codger named Bob Lutz.

Stop being a lap dog and engage your brain. You'll go farther if you show some humility, respect, and open mindedness.

That's just one thing this "old" person has learned. Maybe one day you will too.

 

I'm actually a "young" fart, but a fart all the same


-Mike

 

OK...back to name calling again.

I'm signing off on this one.

The name Camaro means friend, pal, or comrade..........

Perhaps you should think about that for a while......

When someone finally comes up with something new.......email me.

 

Hi everyone...

My name is Fred...

and I'm...

I'm...

an OLD FART - there I said it!

:crowd mode = on: Hi Fred! :Crowd mode = off:

OK - joking aside...
I was just telling a friend recently about raising a kid. I remeber being a kid and thinking my Mom and Dad were just making me do homework and study and listen to their lectures because they wanted to torture me - and they could because they were my parents. I am now onto my kid to study hard and listen to what I say - just like my folks did to me. The difference is that now - I understand WHY they did it... completely. They LOVED ME and wanted me to be successful and secure in my future, just like I want for my kid. When I give her a lesson in life (why we don't run in restaurants or why we look both ways before crossing the road) it's for a reason, but by the looks I get, you can tell she thinks I'm just torchuring her for my pleasure. There is MUCH similarity in what us "old farts" are bringing into this discussion.

We are trying to throw out ideas and situations we have LIVED THROUGH to help forge a better path forward - no more, no less. Why make the same mistake twice? And why not do what we know works? Certainly you can't think we don't want to see change - SURE WE DO! But that change needs to be in a positive direction, don't you think?

Quick example... We all want a fast sporty cheap car for our F5, right?
No problem, let's look at some issues...
One body style to keep costs low, OK? Vert maybe.
Base engine and V8 - that's it - again, simple and cheap.
Couple wheel packages, maybe some stripe kits or spoilers to add flare.
Good quality, not super but good. Oky-dokey.
2-doors a must for the sporty car - In-like-Flynn (old guy saying... )
Roomy but not huge, good proportions, decent ergonomics.
Easy to see and drive for sure.
Very good value, and cost-competitive to other similar models.
So we have the basis for our F5 - agreed? (give or take a little)

Should sell well, huh? I think it could...
but let's see what the "old fart" might have to say...

I've seen at least 20 cars matching that description come and go - some failing MISERABLY. 'Cuda, Charger, Javelin, Roadrunner, Dart, 200Z, 240Z, 300Z, Supra, Celica, B210, Monza, Maverick, Comet, Capri, EXP, Vega, Corvair, Impulse, Conquest Tsi, Monte Carlo, Escort GT, Cougar, Torino, Chevelle.... I could go on and on and on. All those cars pretty much met the criteria above, but failed. So did the Camaro.

Why did they all fail?
Old farts know why - they were there.
They turned down the chance to buy those very cars for various reasons.
They were in those economies. Those styles. Those times.
Sure you can READ ABOUT WHY THEY FAILED if you weren't there, and you'll have some idea - but WHO WROTE THE BOOK YOU READ IT IN?!?! Yup - another OLD FART!
Old farts can bring these reasons out for discussion and explain them, not state them bluntly.
Maybe the reasons for success/failure apply today - maybe not. We can find out together as we talk about them. But one thing for sure, experience is the best teacher, and no school book can teach you experience. You younger guys should not only appreciate the input from old farts, but you should welcome it and learn from it. Would any of you like to start a brand new job and have nobody help you or show you how to do it?

So show some respect for the knowledge we bring here...
it can't hurt, but it sure might help... if you will let it.

One last thing...
Us OLD FARTS are the ones with the big money that gets dropped on loaded SS's, Cobra R's, Saleens, Lingenfelters, and the like. We also typically have twice as many cars as the younger guys - having a car to show, a toy, and a daily driver. Average Camaro buyers age again? NOT 22!!! Mustang either. So maybe, just maybe, we are the main crowd the car should be designed for in the first place!
I'd like mine without OnStar and HUD please.

 

Aside from all the name calling, I would like to get back to the discussion at hand.... here are my takes on things...

I agree with the "features" you guys bring up as options in the 5th gen, but here is my opinion on motors... What if the base car had a v6, next would be a 5.3 LSx in a "RS" model then have the LSx 5.7 in the Z28 and the higher output LSx motor in the SS and then have the option of the ZL1 again or something possibly equivalent not using the ZL1 name. My point is this, the 5.3's are pretty good motors and would make a great "base" v8 for the Camaro and think it would be a good option. Thats my $0.02 on the motor situation!

 

My suggestion is this...
If the "NEW" Camaro is going to be so radically different, and new, and redefined that it no longer says "I'm a Camaro" to me when I see it, then let it RIP.

IMO, the name DOES NOT NEED REDEFINIG, it's one of the most recognized in the car world. The car itself has become a very specialized high-performance car over the last few years, and has strayed from the successful formula it once possessed - appeal to the masses. The masses do not want a land missile - even a V6 missile. They want comfort, convenience, economy, and quality. And about 30-40% will want a V8 too if history has revealed anything. Go there, and make it resemble a Camaro in some fashion and we're all set.

If "redefining the name and image" is going to do for Camaro what it did for the Nova, or Malibu... spare me the effort. Call it something else and I wish you all the luck with it, but don't make me have to clarify my statements at the track when I tell a pal I ran against an awesome Camaro in the third round and he looks at me funny because he thinks I meant the new F5 that is a 4-door compact family car...

Not ragging on you formula79 - not at all. Just addressing the points in the text. In fact I think your opinion is shared by others who don't have guts enough to post them - at least you did.

 

Revisionism? I think not, I was around in the 70s (and have a few grays to prove it).
G35 a 2 seater? I think not, it's a 4 seater.
G35 costing a good chunk of change? Again, Nope. It starts at only $29,000. Camaro LTs and Berlinettas were not budget cars, and cost about as much as Z28s, and in some instances, even more when fully loaded.

It is really funny at times to hear people (not only directed at you, so don't think I'm picking on you) who weren't around in the 1970s, whose only earliest memory of the F-body is the 3rd gen don't realize that Camaro was never "Just a Z28 and a base affordable car", then are completely ignorant of the fact that the best selling Camaro through the bulk of the 2nd gen's life was the Camaro LT, which is in fact today's equivlent of the Infinity G35 in both price and position (a sporting luxury car).

There were still base models for 20-30 somethings back then, but Camaro's main demographics have always been at varying points the 30s (I once looked it up). Camaro's market has traditionally been those moving up from economy cars....ie: Celicas. I really doubt someone looking for a 2 seat sports car (ie: the 350Z) or an economy car (like the RSX) are the same ones who would buy a Camaro... or Mustang for that matter (BTW: exactly how many 20 something year olds are buying a 350Z? ).


BTW: There are a few things I want to mention here:

1. Although there are some things we may disagree about, I know Redplanet is very intrested in thoughts and ideas regarding Camaro. For a time, some really outstanding ideas and opinions were comming out here, and I asked him to take a look & chime in. Of course, by the time he did, it became a Z vs SS debate again.

2. I was born in 1964, which made me a solid 6 years old when the 2nd gen came out. I was 9 years old when I 1st started getting into cars (1975), and by the age when all boys traditionally recite every specification of their favorite car (+/- 14) it was 1978. So I suspect I do have pretty solid credentials as to what cars actually were like back then than perhaps someone who came of age years later, and simply owned a car from that era. Heck, I owned a 1968 Camaro given to me by my Uncle, but I'm not going to be arrogant to the point of thinking that makes me an expert as to what the 1st gens represented in the late '60s since I had barely started Kindergarden at the time over someone who was well in their teens then.

3. As far as the poll choosing the 3rd gen being the most "Camaro" Camaro, the 3rd gen's sales volume make the 4th gen look 2nd rate. More cars, more familiarity. Of course the 3rd gen wins. Before the 80s, cars rarely lasted 8 years. Beyond cars worth collecting, no one takes time to lavish care or restoration on an old car. As a result, 1st & 2nd gens are pretty rare. 3rds sold well and lasted a good while. Therefore, it's the car most thought of. Heck, I even think of it 1st!

Seattle, Washington.... Training..... Very Busy.

 

Without all of the knowledge of the G35, this is precisely why I picked the name "Berlinetta" for the hypothetical package. Fit in nicely historically.



It is, in my opinion, a very valuable piece that has been missing.

3rd gen cars WERE this at the beginning, and then as the reputation of the car degraded (for a raft full of reasons), they lost it.

The 4th gen cars just never seemed viable in this area. There was a base car and then a "rip your head off" performance Z28. SS cars pushed into this territory a little, but we can't truly say that lots of people looking for a G35 would cross-shop an SS.



Guion, I'd love to see some demographics if you ever dig them up.

 

I agree....but then again,maybe I'm just a middle aged nostalgist stuck in the past......I'm just used to Camaro being successful.

 

...I simply want to ask GM........I am 46 years old, married, our income is somewhere around $75k+/-....I have 23 & 16 year old children (with their own cars)....own my own home, blah, blah, blah.....

I also currently drive a 1994 Z/28 with a 465hp modified LT4, MN6, setup for road racing with Konis, BAER brakes, etc....

I want a car that has very high levels of power and performance....and style....I DO NOT want a sedan...I WANT a SPORTS CAR...and I only want to spend $30k - 35K +/-......BTW, I really am attracted to the 350Z.....

I love the Camro (duh)...but you don't make them any longer.....so what am I supposed to buy?!?

 

A GTO. These Monte SS is a half-assed job if you ask me. Too little too late. Or G35 coupe, 3 series BMW..... I guess thats it. Maybe a used 4th gen.

 

This thread is laughable at best.

 

Its interesting that some here seem to think of the 3rd gen first when thinking of a Camaro.

My thoughts always run to 1st gens. In fact if you go to a car show, what is the most common Camaro? Yep, a 69. I've helped put on a lot of shows, the hardest class to fill is usually 3rd gen.
Now I do understand that this doesn't mean they aren't popular. But the 82 to 92 cars have never defined Camaro. It was the early 2nd gens that defined thew low slung style as 'Camaro'. The 1st gens have a different stance than all others.

Also, this argument about 'SS' seems strange. SS historically was the high performance, rip your eyeballs out of the socket, what was that? form of Chevy's. And not just Camaros, Chevelles, Novas, etc.
SS should be a high performance version, just stands to reason that 'Super Sport' should be well above the rest.

Now, before anyone looks at my post count and says 'here's another know nothing', I'm the Vice-President of the Pacific Northwest Camaro Club. I may not know everything about Camaros but I have been listening and learning.

Bottom line, let's drop the insults. They add nothing to the topic at hand.

Oh, one last thing, if we want the Camaro to make a comeback, we'll have to talk with our wallets. Chevy isn't going to produce it if it won't make them money. Why would they? All I can hope for is that they car appeals to more than just us hardcore performance people. Remember, they have to build enough to make a profit and that means marketing to a wide variety of people.

Red Planet, please don't give up on us. I know we (the public and enthusiats) can be annoying. Hope to see you in Seattle at All Chevy '04 (and bring a car to drag race Friday night)

 

I don't consider a GTO a sports car...it's a hi-po sedan....it dwarf's a 4th gen and a Mustang in height......in fact, wasn't the original Monaro a four door? You can still see the original four door shape in this coupe.

GM doesn't get my $$ if I buy a G35, 350Z or 3 Series...

 

Well it's either GTO, Grand Am, Sunfire, Corvette, Cavalier, or Monte SS if you want a coupe. You be the judge. IMO GM only makes 3 nice cars CTS, GTO, Corvette. So if I had to buy a GM product it would be one of those.