Are the Camaro enthusiasts dooming the Camaro name?
08-23-2003, 04:14 PM
#16
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Originally posted by 84t-topZ
I sure hope Someone will correct me if I am in fact wrong, but didnt GM get rid of the Z28 designation when the IROC was introduced?
I sure hope Someone will correct me if I am in fact wrong, but didnt GM get rid of the Z28 designation when the IROC was introduced?
08-23-2003, 04:44 PM
#17
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Pacer, the core premise of my post, is that Camaro has moved away from the middle market that keeps it afloat during hard times, and the apparent eagerness by many to turn it into a supercar without having a broad market to weather rough times, not to mention sacrificing volume. I personally believe Camaro can either match or beat Mustang in sales volume, or at the very least, give it a serious run for the money, and give it a solid future for years (and future GM regime changes) to come.
You mentioned enthusiasts stayed with the car, and that's the point I'm trying to make: "Who else is there"? I came to Camaro from Mustang because Ford was moving backwards in performance when I was ready to buy a new car. My sister went from Mustang to Camaro when she simply got fed up with Ford's BS over reimbursing her for replacing more than a few faulty parts (which later turned up in recalls
).
But there were also people like my uncle who brought one of the 1st '68s. He went for a mid-level car with a 327 powerglide I later inherited. When I was a early teen, my neighbor bought a new '77 Type LT. Seems you couldn't spit in the '80s without hitting first a Berlina and later scores of RSs. These were the type of people that kept Camaro alive when Insurance rates climbed so high that Chevy had to ditch the SS name across the board. These are the people who kept Camaro alive when there was no Z28 for 2 1/2 years in the 70s, and these are the people who made Camaro a definitive success in the 1980s when IROCs and Z28s wern't accounting for nearly half of all Camaro sales.
Of course, if you were to buy a 3rd gen today, you'd go for the most powerful models. But that's no different from someone looking for a car from the 60s, 70's, or 80s. You don't desire mid-level or base cars because they were commonplace and not the "best" or worth collecting. Just because an old car buyer wants a '69 Chevelle SS for example, doesn't mean that the other 90% of Chevelles made were a mistake. If it wasn't for that 90%, the 10% that were SSs wouldn't have existed. That's the point I'm trying to make( though probally not as well as I wanted to).
I think you nailed my premise on the head when you stated that "the base car simply didn't cut it". Again, the Z28 excelled, which is good for enthusiasts, but what other choice is there if you want a nice Grand Tourer, or looking for an alternative to a Solara, a G35, or an Accord coupe? Camaro's limited to a high performance version, and a junk version (I'm leaving out SS because it's the same performance level as the Z28) . Where's the masses going to go?
Many of the points you make are either from an engineering point of view (in which you present good points countering my rant
), but in other areas, you also seem to be bringing up things that prove my point to a tee.
Examples? Stating who cares about windshield angle when you're putting on headers? This is an enthusiast's viewpoint that's not likely to be considered by the general buying public. Viewing the high performance Z28 as a "mid-level car, by saying the top model should be an ultra high performance mode is another.
Let me propose a mid-level Camaro:
It starts out with better quality interior materials and assembly across the board on all Camaros. It has a shared powerful V6 with the base model. It has either wood grain or brushed aluminum interior trim over the base model's interior colored pieces. It has all the electronic gadgets such as electric memory seats, an optional navigation system, different level of seat trim, etc... that's not avalable on the base model. It has standard alumunum 16" wheels that perhaps is optional on the base model, with the performance model's handling package. Give it a unique model designation in chromed plastic on the fenders, and there you have it.
Meanwhile, the base model can also have an optional trim package that includes ground effects & spoiler (ie: the RS), forementioned optional rims & tires, it benifits from a higher quality interior across the board, it has a powerful V6 standard, & it's affordable for younger or budget buyers.
This addresses most of the reasons for not creating a mid-model. It avoids certifying an additional engine, it creates a Gran Touring model that appeals to a group of buyers that don't want a low level car, but don't want a street racer either (ie: the forementioned G35, Solara, etc...). Price it a few thousand above the base model, and just below the performance model, and if history is a judge, this edition will become your volume seller, financing the rest of the line (especially the performance version) ensuring it's future...including performance models... if events force performance car sales down again.
Just think, it would also have the effect of ridding the "mullet" image, perhaps once & for all.
You mentioned enthusiasts stayed with the car, and that's the point I'm trying to make: "Who else is there"? I came to Camaro from Mustang because Ford was moving backwards in performance when I was ready to buy a new car. My sister went from Mustang to Camaro when she simply got fed up with Ford's BS over reimbursing her for replacing more than a few faulty parts (which later turned up in recalls
). But there were also people like my uncle who brought one of the 1st '68s. He went for a mid-level car with a 327 powerglide I later inherited. When I was a early teen, my neighbor bought a new '77 Type LT. Seems you couldn't spit in the '80s without hitting first a Berlina and later scores of RSs. These were the type of people that kept Camaro alive when Insurance rates climbed so high that Chevy had to ditch the SS name across the board. These are the people who kept Camaro alive when there was no Z28 for 2 1/2 years in the 70s, and these are the people who made Camaro a definitive success in the 1980s when IROCs and Z28s wern't accounting for nearly half of all Camaro sales.
Of course, if you were to buy a 3rd gen today, you'd go for the most powerful models. But that's no different from someone looking for a car from the 60s, 70's, or 80s. You don't desire mid-level or base cars because they were commonplace and not the "best" or worth collecting. Just because an old car buyer wants a '69 Chevelle SS for example, doesn't mean that the other 90% of Chevelles made were a mistake. If it wasn't for that 90%, the 10% that were SSs wouldn't have existed. That's the point I'm trying to make( though probally not as well as I wanted to).
I think you nailed my premise on the head when you stated that "the base car simply didn't cut it". Again, the Z28 excelled, which is good for enthusiasts, but what other choice is there if you want a nice Grand Tourer, or looking for an alternative to a Solara, a G35, or an Accord coupe? Camaro's limited to a high performance version, and a junk version (I'm leaving out SS because it's the same performance level as the Z28) . Where's the masses going to go?
Many of the points you make are either from an engineering point of view (in which you present good points countering my rant
), but in other areas, you also seem to be bringing up things that prove my point to a tee. Examples? Stating who cares about windshield angle when you're putting on headers? This is an enthusiast's viewpoint that's not likely to be considered by the general buying public. Viewing the high performance Z28 as a "mid-level car, by saying the top model should be an ultra high performance mode is another.
Let me propose a mid-level Camaro:
It starts out with better quality interior materials and assembly across the board on all Camaros. It has a shared powerful V6 with the base model. It has either wood grain or brushed aluminum interior trim over the base model's interior colored pieces. It has all the electronic gadgets such as electric memory seats, an optional navigation system, different level of seat trim, etc... that's not avalable on the base model. It has standard alumunum 16" wheels that perhaps is optional on the base model, with the performance model's handling package. Give it a unique model designation in chromed plastic on the fenders, and there you have it.
Meanwhile, the base model can also have an optional trim package that includes ground effects & spoiler (ie: the RS), forementioned optional rims & tires, it benifits from a higher quality interior across the board, it has a powerful V6 standard, & it's affordable for younger or budget buyers.
This addresses most of the reasons for not creating a mid-model. It avoids certifying an additional engine, it creates a Gran Touring model that appeals to a group of buyers that don't want a low level car, but don't want a street racer either (ie: the forementioned G35, Solara, etc...). Price it a few thousand above the base model, and just below the performance model, and if history is a judge, this edition will become your volume seller, financing the rest of the line (especially the performance version) ensuring it's future...including performance models... if events force performance car sales down again.
Just think, it would also have the effect of ridding the "mullet" image, perhaps once & for all.
Last edited by guionM; 08-23-2003 at 04:54 PM.
08-23-2003, 05:37 PM
#18
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
"Pacer, the core premise of my post, is that Camaro has moved away from the middle market that keeps it afloat during hard times, and the apparent eagerness by many to turn it into a supercar without having a broad market to weather rough times, not to mention sacrificing volume."
But, if I understand you premise correctly, the idea is that the "supercars" somehow detracted from the base model. I honestly don't believe this is the case. Categorically, nothing really happened to either of them for 9 years - apart from the terrific move of bolting in the LS1 as the only performance engine - the car was left to die on the vine across the board and the top cars had nothing to do with it. The tops cars were the only ones that would sell, and the main reason they kept selling was the LS1. If the LT1 had lingered, the car would have fallen off the earth even more quickly.
"I personally believe Camaro can either match or beat Mustang in sales volume, or at the very least, give it a serious run for the money, and give it a solid future for years (and future GM regime changes) to come."
Be happy if they can sell 100,000. 200,000 is a bit of a stretch.
"I think you nailed my premise on the head when you stated that "the base car simply didn't cut it". Again, the Z28 excelled, which is good for enthusiasts, but what other choice is there if you want a nice Grand Tourer, or looking for an alternative to a Solara, a G35, or an Accord coupe?"
The day the Camaro ends up in serious comparisons with an Accord or Solara with be a DARK one. The car is not, and should not be, some mealy-mouthed appliance in nice clothes.
Simply to remain what it is, it has to be edgier than any of the three cars you mentioned.
Make a Malibu coupe if the idea is to stack up against Accord coupes and Solaras.
"Examples? Stating who cares about windshield angle when you're putting on headers? This is an enthusiast's viewpoint that's not likely to be considered by the general buying public. Viewing the high performance Z28 as a "mid-level car, by saying the top model should be an ultra high performance mode is another."
You missed my point. My point is that the NON-enthusiasts don't care about engine access. How many Solara drivers are going to change their own plugs or slap a set of headers on? Nest to NONE. It is the ENTHUSIASTS that gripe about the windshield rake causing problems with working under the hood, NOT the segment of the market you're targeting - who couldn't care LESS about engine access.
The windshield rake had nothing to do with enthusiasts, it was all about styling.
BTW - if you think messing around with Camaro sparkplugs is bad, try a FWD V6 on for size sometime. You'll BEG for your Camaro back.
"Let me propose a mid-level Camaro:
It starts out with better quality interior materials and assembly across the board on all Camaros. It has a shared powerful V6 with the base model. It has either wood grain or brushed aluminum interior trim over the base model's interior colored pieces. It has all the electronic gadgets such as electric memory seats, an optional navigation system, different level of seat trim, etc... that's not avalable on the base model. It has standard alumunum 16" wheels that perhaps is optional on the base model, with the performance model's handling package. Give it a unique model designation in chromed plastic on the fenders, and there you have it.
Meanwhile, the base model can also have an optional trim package that includes ground effects & spoiler (ie: the RS), forementioned optional rims & tires, it benifits from a higher quality interior across the board, it has a powerful V6 standard, & it's affordable for younger or budget buyers."
Again, here's the problem:
$800 separates a Mustang GT from a full-book base V6 Mustang. Where are you going to put in and pay for all of these options/add-ons in $800? The room simply doesn't exist unless you drive the top cars up in price considerably.... the nav system alone will jack the sticker price on the base car $800.
Now, couple this fact that there has to be breathing room between Corvette and the top Camaro and you'll see how the car gets pinched. If I remember correctly, my car stickered at ~$33,000. Corvettes were somewhere around $43,000. If Camaro gets driven up $2000 more, I'm driving a Corvette home.
Driving up the price of the car with gadgets is a bad idea. That's what Corvettes are for. Camaros are affordable performers with great styling and 4 seats.
A base Camaro's target IS NOT and should NEVER BE an Infiniti. The target is the base Mustang, Sebring, Solara and Accord coupes. There's no need for a midlevel car if the base car can handle this.
Then, the Z28 steps in and lays waste to the the GT Mustangs, 350Z's and RX-8's of the world. A good rule of thumb is to have the Z28 able to take them on in any respect (performance, comfort, styling, etc...), and run dead even with the higher ends of that spectrum (Cobras and G35's).
Finally, top it off with the SS which provides (for a premium) the closest thing to a Corvette that you can buy with 4 seats.
With Firebird dead, this isn't out of reach - half of the effort can be devoted for a greater return.
But, if I understand you premise correctly, the idea is that the "supercars" somehow detracted from the base model. I honestly don't believe this is the case. Categorically, nothing really happened to either of them for 9 years - apart from the terrific move of bolting in the LS1 as the only performance engine - the car was left to die on the vine across the board and the top cars had nothing to do with it. The tops cars were the only ones that would sell, and the main reason they kept selling was the LS1. If the LT1 had lingered, the car would have fallen off the earth even more quickly.
"I personally believe Camaro can either match or beat Mustang in sales volume, or at the very least, give it a serious run for the money, and give it a solid future for years (and future GM regime changes) to come."
Be happy if they can sell 100,000. 200,000 is a bit of a stretch.
"I think you nailed my premise on the head when you stated that "the base car simply didn't cut it". Again, the Z28 excelled, which is good for enthusiasts, but what other choice is there if you want a nice Grand Tourer, or looking for an alternative to a Solara, a G35, or an Accord coupe?"
The day the Camaro ends up in serious comparisons with an Accord or Solara with be a DARK one. The car is not, and should not be, some mealy-mouthed appliance in nice clothes.
Simply to remain what it is, it has to be edgier than any of the three cars you mentioned.
Make a Malibu coupe if the idea is to stack up against Accord coupes and Solaras.
"Examples? Stating who cares about windshield angle when you're putting on headers? This is an enthusiast's viewpoint that's not likely to be considered by the general buying public. Viewing the high performance Z28 as a "mid-level car, by saying the top model should be an ultra high performance mode is another."
You missed my point. My point is that the NON-enthusiasts don't care about engine access. How many Solara drivers are going to change their own plugs or slap a set of headers on? Nest to NONE. It is the ENTHUSIASTS that gripe about the windshield rake causing problems with working under the hood, NOT the segment of the market you're targeting - who couldn't care LESS about engine access.
The windshield rake had nothing to do with enthusiasts, it was all about styling.
BTW - if you think messing around with Camaro sparkplugs is bad, try a FWD V6 on for size sometime. You'll BEG for your Camaro back.
"Let me propose a mid-level Camaro:
It starts out with better quality interior materials and assembly across the board on all Camaros. It has a shared powerful V6 with the base model. It has either wood grain or brushed aluminum interior trim over the base model's interior colored pieces. It has all the electronic gadgets such as electric memory seats, an optional navigation system, different level of seat trim, etc... that's not avalable on the base model. It has standard alumunum 16" wheels that perhaps is optional on the base model, with the performance model's handling package. Give it a unique model designation in chromed plastic on the fenders, and there you have it.
Meanwhile, the base model can also have an optional trim package that includes ground effects & spoiler (ie: the RS), forementioned optional rims & tires, it benifits from a higher quality interior across the board, it has a powerful V6 standard, & it's affordable for younger or budget buyers."
Again, here's the problem:
$800 separates a Mustang GT from a full-book base V6 Mustang. Where are you going to put in and pay for all of these options/add-ons in $800? The room simply doesn't exist unless you drive the top cars up in price considerably.... the nav system alone will jack the sticker price on the base car $800.
Now, couple this fact that there has to be breathing room between Corvette and the top Camaro and you'll see how the car gets pinched. If I remember correctly, my car stickered at ~$33,000. Corvettes were somewhere around $43,000. If Camaro gets driven up $2000 more, I'm driving a Corvette home.
Driving up the price of the car with gadgets is a bad idea. That's what Corvettes are for. Camaros are affordable performers with great styling and 4 seats.
A base Camaro's target IS NOT and should NEVER BE an Infiniti. The target is the base Mustang, Sebring, Solara and Accord coupes. There's no need for a midlevel car if the base car can handle this.
Then, the Z28 steps in and lays waste to the the GT Mustangs, 350Z's and RX-8's of the world. A good rule of thumb is to have the Z28 able to take them on in any respect (performance, comfort, styling, etc...), and run dead even with the higher ends of that spectrum (Cobras and G35's).
Finally, top it off with the SS which provides (for a premium) the closest thing to a Corvette that you can buy with 4 seats.
With Firebird dead, this isn't out of reach - half of the effort can be devoted for a greater return.
08-23-2003, 06:56 PM
#19
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Location: Sarasota FL
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Well, I agree with everything from guion's post, and would like to accentuate one thing...and good ol' RP already knows I crow this whenever possible...
WE NEED A MID LEVEL MODEL. Period. Sign me up...I'll buy the first. Give me a nice 25k RS or base model with around a 280-300hp V8, and show me where to sign...
Not everyone needs/wants to pay for more than they want/need. Mustang GT sales prove that. Give a base V8, and the buyers will indeed come...my experience selling Firebirds proved this.
WE NEED A MID LEVEL MODEL. Period. Sign me up...I'll buy the first. Give me a nice 25k RS or base model with around a 280-300hp V8, and show me where to sign...
Not everyone needs/wants to pay for more than they want/need. Mustang GT sales prove that. Give a base V8, and the buyers will indeed come...my experience selling Firebirds proved this.
08-23-2003, 07:17 PM
#20
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Location: Sterling Heights, MI
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Originally posted by Jason E
WE NEED A MID LEVEL MODEL. Period. Sign me up...I'll buy the first. Give me a nice 25k RS or base model with around a 280-300hp V8, and show me where to sign...
Not everyone needs/wants to pay for more than they want/need. Mustang GT sales prove that. Give a base V8, and the buyers will indeed come...my experience selling Firebirds proved this.
WE NEED A MID LEVEL MODEL. Period. Sign me up...I'll buy the first. Give me a nice 25k RS or base model with around a 280-300hp V8, and show me where to sign...
Not everyone needs/wants to pay for more than they want/need. Mustang GT sales prove that. Give a base V8, and the buyers will indeed come...my experience selling Firebirds proved this.
Was the "310" HP LS1 in the Z28 really a mid-level car? That's the true debate here.
08-23-2003, 08:08 PM
#21
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Location: Chicagoland IL
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If we are in fact, limited to two engines...I think guion's "mid-level" V6 car works great.
It won't quite compete model for model with Mustang...but it may capture alot of Accord Coupe/Solara shoppers. I believe that this is an important segment for Camaro to exploit. I'm sure that the G35 Coupe however, will remain above this fray.
I also remember a time when Berlinettas and Type LT's were simply everywhere you looked. Sure,no one collects those today...but nevertheless....GM built a crapload of 'em, and customers paid money to buy them. And I remember who used to buy them too.....real live grown ups with real live jobs, who were looking for sporty, stylish transportation. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT NEED TO START BUYING CAMAROS AGAIN!!!!
One modification from your formula though guion, it ought to have 17" wheels.
It won't quite compete model for model with Mustang...but it may capture alot of Accord Coupe/Solara shoppers. I believe that this is an important segment for Camaro to exploit. I'm sure that the G35 Coupe however, will remain above this fray.
I also remember a time when Berlinettas and Type LT's were simply everywhere you looked. Sure,no one collects those today...but nevertheless....GM built a crapload of 'em, and customers paid money to buy them. And I remember who used to buy them too.....real live grown ups with real live jobs, who were looking for sporty, stylish transportation. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT NEED TO START BUYING CAMAROS AGAIN!!!!
One modification from your formula though guion, it ought to have 17" wheels.
Last edited by Z284ever; 08-23-2003 at 09:16 PM.
08-23-2003, 11:16 PM
#22
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I mean $25,000 in '07 dollars...equivalent ROUGHLY to $22,000 or so in todays dollars. Add a grand or two if needed.
I do NOT see an '02 Z28 as being a mid-level car. No way. No one else did either. No one saw my 10 Formulas as "mid-level" cars. People wanted a $22,000 base car with an $800 V8....THAT is a "mid-level" car. Think third gen RS with a 305...THAT is what I mean.
Many people could NOT figure out why the hell they needed to pay, all options being equal, $4,000 more for a Formula just to get the V8!!!! Thats asinine, and goes against the whole "budget V8 sports car" idea that made these cars so damn popular in the first place. I know you could get a $23k Z28 V8. But it was stripped. Same time, you can get a loaded Mustang GT for the same $$.
Z28 was not mid level. And a mid level V6 is flat awful, period. A supercharged 3800 will NOT make these buyers happy. They want an 8. I want an 8. Some people JUST WANT A CAMARO WITH A V8. Period. Nothing more. We never got that in a 4th gen...we need it in a 5th.
And no one will tell me different. History can repeat itself. Go through production #s and look at the amount of 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen base models with V8s. Huge, eh???
I do NOT see an '02 Z28 as being a mid-level car. No way. No one else did either. No one saw my 10 Formulas as "mid-level" cars. People wanted a $22,000 base car with an $800 V8....THAT is a "mid-level" car. Think third gen RS with a 305...THAT is what I mean.
Many people could NOT figure out why the hell they needed to pay, all options being equal, $4,000 more for a Formula just to get the V8!!!! Thats asinine, and goes against the whole "budget V8 sports car" idea that made these cars so damn popular in the first place. I know you could get a $23k Z28 V8. But it was stripped. Same time, you can get a loaded Mustang GT for the same $$.
Z28 was not mid level. And a mid level V6 is flat awful, period. A supercharged 3800 will NOT make these buyers happy. They want an 8. I want an 8. Some people JUST WANT A CAMARO WITH A V8. Period. Nothing more. We never got that in a 4th gen...we need it in a 5th.
And no one will tell me different. History can repeat itself. Go through production #s and look at the amount of 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen base models with V8s. Huge, eh???
08-23-2003, 11:39 PM
#24
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Originally posted by Jason E
Z28 was not mid level. And a mid level V6 is flat awful, period. A supercharged 3800 will NOT make these buyers happy. They want an 8. I want an 8. Some people JUST WANT A CAMARO WITH A V8. Period. Nothing more. We never got that in a 4th gen...we need it in a 5th.
Z28 was not mid level. And a mid level V6 is flat awful, period. A supercharged 3800 will NOT make these buyers happy. They want an 8. I want an 8. Some people JUST WANT A CAMARO WITH A V8. Period. Nothing more. We never got that in a 4th gen...we need it in a 5th.
Again, I don't disagree...but it would be interesting to get some viewpoints.
The total execution of the entire car may dictate which powerplant may be most appropriate. I think the 4.8 would have made a great mid-level choice in the 4th gen.....if 4th gens were popular enough to bear another engine choice. Another engine choice in the 4th gen, IMO, would not have made much difference in sales.
A 5th gen may be another story.......
08-24-2003, 12:44 AM
#25
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I see what you're saying...me thinks the 4th gen would have been more popular and be able to afford a third engine choice, if they had given one in the first place!!
I agree, the 4.8 at 270hp was the perfect choice. Honestly? If I could have ordered my $22,500, loaded 5 speed Firebird coupe I wanted (all power, t-tops, chrome wheels, no Monsoon, no keyless came to $22,500 even) with an $800 4.8 option, I would have a new Firebird in my garage right now...
But I could not afford the extra $4,000 for a new Formula, so I scrapped the idea...and decided if I was going to buy a 6 cylinder car, might as well make it FWD too so I can drive it better in the winter...
Hence a new Grand Am instead of a new 4.8 Firebird
About the same $$, way more tame, not as much fun, but it does go in snow!!
I agree, the 4.8 at 270hp was the perfect choice. Honestly? If I could have ordered my $22,500, loaded 5 speed Firebird coupe I wanted (all power, t-tops, chrome wheels, no Monsoon, no keyless came to $22,500 even) with an $800 4.8 option, I would have a new Firebird in my garage right now...
But I could not afford the extra $4,000 for a new Formula, so I scrapped the idea...and decided if I was going to buy a 6 cylinder car, might as well make it FWD too so I can drive it better in the winter...
Hence a new Grand Am instead of a new 4.8 Firebird
About the same $$, way more tame, not as much fun, but it does go in snow!!
08-24-2003, 01:23 AM
#26
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Posts: 1,313
Originally posted by PacerX
Guion, how many folks in the target market for the base car care about the windshield rake from the point of view of throwing headers on or changing plugs?
Next to none.
Isn't this an enthusiast's issue interfereing with a feature that non-enthusiast's like (the aggressive looks a steep windshield rake can give)?
You missed my point. My point is that the NON-enthusiasts don't care about engine access. How many Solara drivers are going to change their own plugs or slap a set of headers on? Nest to NONE. It is the ENTHUSIASTS that gripe about the windshield rake causing problems with working under the hood, NOT the segment of the market you're targeting - who couldn't care LESS about engine access.
The windshield rake had nothing to do with enthusiasts, it was all about styling.
Guion, how many folks in the target market for the base car care about the windshield rake from the point of view of throwing headers on or changing plugs?
Next to none.
Isn't this an enthusiast's issue interfereing with a feature that non-enthusiast's like (the aggressive looks a steep windshield rake can give)?
You missed my point. My point is that the NON-enthusiasts don't care about engine access. How many Solara drivers are going to change their own plugs or slap a set of headers on? Nest to NONE. It is the ENTHUSIASTS that gripe about the windshield rake causing problems with working under the hood, NOT the segment of the market you're targeting - who couldn't care LESS about engine access.
The windshield rake had nothing to do with enthusiasts, it was all about styling.
Bad access means more time in the shop to complete the repairs, which in turn equals more $$$ out of the car owners pocket. No one like that.
I look at my old mans work van (a Safari) and cringe every time i look at its engine bay. He's no enthusiast but he hates how more than half the engine is shoved under the windshield/dash. Even the battery is shoved in one corner, and getting the jumper cables on the farthest terminal is a pain in the *** at times. I believe his battery is also mounted side ways. It's a good this it has been dead reliable for the past 9 years or he'd have gotten rid of it a long time ago.
Last edited by RiceEating5.0; 08-24-2003 at 01:33 AM.
08-24-2003, 08:44 AM
#27
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Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
You don't have to be an enthusiast to know that bad engine access could be a pain in the ***. I'm sure the non-enthusiast would be affected when their mechanic hands them a ridiculously expensive bill after the repairs on their car was done. How much does it cost a non-enthusiast to have the dealer change out the spark-plugs on a 4th gen? I bet it's a few good $$ more than the GT's.
You don't have to be an enthusiast to know that bad engine access could be a pain in the ***. I'm sure the non-enthusiast would be affected when their mechanic hands them a ridiculously expensive bill after the repairs on their car was done. How much does it cost a non-enthusiast to have the dealer change out the spark-plugs on a 4th gen? I bet it's a few good $$ more than the GT's.
Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Bad access means more time in the shop to complete the repairs, which in turn equals more $$$ out of the car owners pocket. No one like that.
Bad access means more time in the shop to complete the repairs, which in turn equals more $$$ out of the car owners pocket. No one like that.
Again, look at a FWD V6 and tell me Camaros are HALF that bad.
08-24-2003, 10:47 AM
#28
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Arlington, Texas
Posts: 2,576
As far as the Camaro competing w/ the Accord coupe and Solara, for the base car, in todays market, I think yes, they are competitors. The next base Mustang is going upscale to some extent in content. I personally looked at the Acura CL when the new one came out because I wanted more of a real touring coupe than the base Camaro was, but I ended up doing the Formula for less $$ in the long run. I don't think Camaro would necessaryly compete head on w/ say, an accord coupe, but I think alot of those buyers that go to honda are looking for a sporty coupe, and probably found that the Camaro didn't measure up, and more or less "settled" on a Solara or Accord coupe.
For the record, put me down for guions mid level, but w/ JasonE's optional 4.8, and I'll GMS that sucker in a heartbeat.
Also, the concerns about the 4.8 stepping on the toes of a 250hp 6, the 305tbi only had like 20 more hp than the 6 of the day, but I remember the torque numbers being significantly higher, and that's what most buyers really want anyway, even though they don't realize it.
For the record, put me down for guions mid level, but w/ JasonE's optional 4.8, and I'll GMS that sucker in a heartbeat.
Also, the concerns about the 4.8 stepping on the toes of a 250hp 6, the 305tbi only had like 20 more hp than the 6 of the day, but I remember the torque numbers being significantly higher, and that's what most buyers really want anyway, even though they don't realize it.
08-24-2003, 10:50 AM
#29
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: cinci
Posts: 3,772
Originally posted by Z284ever
I definitely don't disagree. Ideally, I'd like to see a mid-level V8. But will GM do it? And if a 275-300hp V8 were available....wouldn't a 250+ hp V6 start stepping on it's toes?
I definitely don't disagree. Ideally, I'd like to see a mid-level V8. But will GM do it? And if a 275-300hp V8 were available....wouldn't a 250+ hp V6 start stepping on it's toes?
and i dont think it would matter to most people anyways if a v6 would be close to their v8. they have a v8 in a sports car, and thats good enough for them. which is the reason why 305 tbi's were sold in plenty.
08-24-2003, 11:26 AM
#30
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,313
Originally posted by PacerX
4th gens have 100,000 mile plugs. Until then there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for anyone to care what it costs OR how hard they are to get at (unless they're doing engine mods - and those folks are outside the discussion anyway).
4th gens have 100,000 mile plugs. Until then there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for anyone to care what it costs OR how hard they are to get at (unless they're doing engine mods - and those folks are outside the discussion anyway).
Like the case with my old mans Safari, something as simple as getting the jumper cable on the far right battery terminal can be a pain. No one should have to deal with that, enthusiast or non-enthusiast. At least with the Safari, it was done this way to cut back on the overall length of the van with no sacrifice to interior space.
Originally posted by PacerX
Oh B.S.
Again, look at a FWD V6 and tell me Camaros are HALF that bad.
Oh B.S.
Again, look at a FWD V6 and tell me Camaros are HALF that bad.
From what I remember, the masses weren’t so crazy about it and that huge dash either. In fact, many cite this as one of the design flaws leading to the f-bods demise. There’s a none-enthusiast viewpoint right there.