Hey Scott,

Good to hear from you!! BTW get some sleep! 3:00 in the morning?!?

I think the one main point, those of us who are championing a return to the roots of the Z/28 are trying to make is not that we hold any resentment against the SS…in fact, I believe it did a lot to enhance and even extend the life of the Camaro as we knew it.

In a strange twisted sense of logic, what should have happened in the early 70’s is that the Z/28 should have been the model to be discontinued and the SS left to carry the banner…until such a time as a qualified Z/28 could return to it’s place as a special performance model. Personally, I feel that this would have been more true to the mission statement you provided (and I agree with BTW).

I was the one, back in 1993 at the event here in Indy, that stood up in the banquet and asked, then Chevrolet GM Jim Perkins, why in the world the V6 models looked exactly like the more expensive and current top model, Z/28. He answered as you do…. and while I totally understand the logic and business end of it all, it still doesn’t soften the blow as to the feeling that we are working to satisfy the lowest common denominator and not from the top down.

Looking back though, we all need to recognize that this is the main reason the Mustang sells so much better…i.e. they build customer base from the ground up, so to speak…..I hate it too, but it’s the real world. In fact, the fact that so many compromises were not made in the design and layout of the 4th gen….i.e low seating position and lack of the ability to see the corners….eventually helped to hasten it’ s demise. Mustangs out sold the Camaro by an extreme margin to rental car companies and fleet sales…..a sale is a sale. You gotta’ sell the V6 models to be able to afford to build the performance models.

When the SS returned in 1996, it was given all those things the Z/28 owner longed for….and in fact it was initially called the Z28/SS….an odd marriage of two models with dissimilar missions…so they went their separate ways in 1997.

What seemed to go wrong somewhere along the line, was that the Z/28 was adopted as and subsequently relegated to being the base model V8….as opposed to using one of the other many model monikers .i.e. LT, Berlinetta (although I always hated that name), RS, etc…. Now that I think of it, the LT would have been the perfect moniker to use. I don’t blame GM for using the history and reputation of the Z/28 to sell cars….hell, who wouldn’t?!? It’s just to us purists, it was sorta’ sacrilegious.

But, obviously we can’t change the past, so we look to the future……using the lessons of the past.

When the Z06 was introduced, it reawakened the memory in the Camaro world, of the Z/28’s true mission and also showed us that not only could GM build such a model, but the success of which has proven the value of this decision. Scott, you added to this fervor with your special Z06 powered ZL/1 models. I truly believe the Z06 has heightened the value and aura of all Corvettes.

It also could provide you with an incredible advertising boon!

Imagine, about a year or two after the Camaro returns….initially with the RS (V6 or HO Ecotec), LT (base model V8 or turbo 6) and SS (fully optioned, V8) models…you can re-energize sales with a special, limited edition performance model, the Z/28.

Commercials and advertisements extolling the heritage and domination of the Z/28 will make anyone who ever considered themselves an enthusiast, trample anyone in our paths to the nearest dealer. Along with this excitement, the average Joe who just might be strolling through the showroom and lamenting the fact that he/she really wants a Z/28, can still buy a great car in the other models….only the most hardcore luxury Corvette buyer doesn’t get the Z06.

Finally, my comments (that got me is so much trouble in this thread ) about GM’s lack of commitment to the Camaro were more to the point of GM’s loss of focus and the stranglehold you and your cohorts had to work under to even continue the f-body as long as you did…..much less improving the car to insure it’ survival.

But knowing the facts as you present them…about the tons of $$ that GM had to invest in the late switch to SUV’s and trucks, a person can better understand the lack of available funding. Add to that the major shift in buying habits and the writing was on the wall for the traditional muscle car....still hurts to say that out loud....

If I have any complaint about GM, it’s in the hope that it decides to be a leader and a trendsetter instead of being jerked around by the tail as other manufacturers carve out niche and mainstream markets while always playing catch-up. It’ll take more than rebates to keep buyers buying GM.

Witness the current revival of the horsepower wars (in which I believe the f-body fired the first real shot)....it seems as if GM is again playing catch-up after dropping the ball with the f-body.

It’s easy for us armchair quarterbacks to sit back and criticize and claim to have all the answers….w/o any of the responsibility you guys have…..doesn’t make it right, but hey, what else do we have to talk about? LOL!

BTW, You know exactly where I’m coming from, so I don’t take anything you might say here personally….

Guess I’ll see you in the Windy City instead of Detroit

 

Not trying to get you even more upset RP, but..........

True, that was the original plan.

That is, until, Vince Piggins heard about a very hot SCCA road race series.

In late December of of 1966...when the first production Z/28 was delivered to a racing team....everything would change....forever.

 

Since Chevrolet is starting to designate all their top performance models SS (except Corvette ) the chances of Z28 being the top model are zero!

Not to mention it would **** the hell out of a lot of 4th gen SS owners(which accounted for half of the Camaro V8 sales in 2002) myself included.

The 4th generation was the best performing, best handling F-Body to come from the factory and what it started will continue on in the 5th gen (V6,Z28,SS) like the Mustang(V6,GT,Cobra).

Do you think it would make sense for a 5th gen Z28 to take on a Cobra? That's for the SS to do.

Living in the past is fine, but it shouldn't override the present.

 

It's all in the past, now.

1967-1996 are in the past, just as 1997-2002 is.

And yes it absolutely makes sense for Z/28 to be the performance rival of any future Cobra.

 

We DO NOT want to unseat the SS as the top model.....period!! We simply want a limited production, specially equipped model that is directed to the hardcore enthusiast...

Quote:

Do you think it would make sense for a 5th gen Z28 to take on a Cobra? That's for the SS to do.

The SC Cobra is a limited production high performance model...this is NOT what the SS was meant to do....the SS is the top model for the masses. The Z/28 we envision would be the "secret weapon" so to speak....

Quote:

Living in the past is fine, but it shouldn't override the present.

But let's be honest here...the SS was AWOL from 1972 until 1996...so don't be too quick to claim the throne.....

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
We DO NOT want to unseat the SS as the top model.....period!! We simply want a limited production, specially equipped model that is directed to the hardcore enthusiast...
[QUOTE]

That is what the SS is, for the enthusiast. If you want the absolute best performance model you should get a 4th gen Z28 with the 1LE package.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC

The SC Cobra is a limited production high performance model...this is NOT what the SS was meant to do....the SS is the top model for the masses. The Z/28 we envision would be the "secret weapon" so to speak....
[QUOTE]

Ford is making 12,000 03 Cobras, so I wouldn't consider it limited production. That's about the same number for the 02 SS.

The 4th gen SS outperforms all the previous Camaros, so I think it can claim the throne.

The 4th gen Z28 has the same performance, but you could order better handling packages from SLP as options when you ordered your car.

 

I can live that Doug.....BTW, you're invited to come to the "Windy City" too.

 

Sorry I'm doing this in bits and pieces.......

Which statements seem to be running out of steam?

 

OK...... Flame suit on... check! Sacred cow cattle prod in hand...check! Bunker standing open, ready for me to jump in....check! Well, here goes:

Part one
You seem to be reaching for excuses before you even answer a question. Everybody in the industry has to deal with these issues, not only GM. Thanks for the brief lesson, however, you seem to be justifying Camaro's demise......something that took place just before seemingly everyone & their brother announced they were invading a market that was once Camaro's.

That doesn't seem like a market that's dead methinks.

As you point out that California V6 spawned RS happened in the late 80s! The year is now 2002. Are you trying to say that the reason we all are wrong on this subject is because of a business decision (which you seem to be standing with) that dates back 12 years at a minimum? What your words seem to be saying is that some of us are justified in critizing the F-body program for a lack of change over the 10 season span of the 4th gen.

You also point out a very glaring example of what went wrong with Camaro. At the risk of irking some of the more hardcore elements here, although you take time to listen to some of the enthusiast, which ones do you listen to? Camaro had the drivetrain and suspension areas clamped like a pitbull on a leg. But Camaro lost in all other areas. The buyers who didn't want to give GM that extra $5+ grand plus for an SS were stuck with a plane jane Z28. The entry level buyers deserted to Mustang, the quality mavens went foreign, the do-it-yourselfers (the tuners) went Japanese, and Camaro simply didn't have enough to stand on it's own in the market. Running the 4th gen body into the ground over 10 years while your competitors at the very least sprang for a reskin, and the only people you have left are the hardcore group. It may do wonders for limited production cars like the Corvette, but it is a disaster waiting to happen if you hope to recapture Camaro's sales sucesses of the 80s (still can't believe that's the example you're using )

 

Part Two
#3
I'm not sure I like what I'm hearing here, and to tell you the truth it disgusts me. Simply because a member doesn't show up at a Camaro event when YOU say or else he isn't a Camaro enthusiast is arrogant, and is an attempt by you (not the first...I recall an e-mail you once sent me) to turn others against a person who has an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours, or fall in with your view on things. Is the reason he didn't go to a certain event really anyone's business?

As far as sitting down with you and get a perspective, I am sure everyone of us would love to do this (as long as perspective sharing runs both ways), but I think you are wrong in saying GM does not OWE us an explanation of what you are doing in the future. Fact of the matter is you DO owe the fans and enthusiasts of Camaro (the very people who are Camaro's most devoted buyers...and likely to be the ones willing to wait, work, and save to buy the 1st 5th gens that hit the lot) the common courtesy to at least know if they are wasting their time, and should buy an SUV instead... you DID say that's where the market is now. The "peek into office books" defense doesn't fly. If I was running a brokerage & I was selling 401k's or some other stock plan, if I knew I had a really good package comming that would fit exactly your needs, it would be bad business in the least, and dishonest at the most for me not to tell you about it. I wouldn't have to go into details, biut I'd tell you about it.....kinda like the fact the Corvette guys knowing that they should plan to buy a new Corvette in a couple of years.

I refuse to believe you do not understand this.

#4
The key word as you point out is ORIGINALLY . However you fail to note the fact that after the 1st year, with the exception of an intermission from 75-77 1/2, Z28 was the ultimate Camaro, period.... except for the overpriced Z28 SS's. Is this where you are taking the future high performance Camaro, a $35,000 toy instead of affordable daily performance?

It seems you are moving Camaro's performance model towards Corvette in exclusiveness, while at the same time ignoring the end of the market of bargain performance buyers, and those who simply don't want to pay that price. You have already stated many times that you don't support a mid level V8, so that means the choice could boil down to either SS, or V6. Again a disaster waiting to happen. Again, if someone's misguided idea drives the car into the ground, the "market" will be blamed while some other brand just keeps trucking along in sales. History repeats...again.

Again, I think you need to get out a bit more & look at other competitors BEYOND Camaro SS. Tell me exactly WHY you think you needed rebates to sell $18,000 Camaros while SS's continued to sell without them. Because, although I'm not going to say Camaros are embarressments, they simply could not compete in the market. My guess why? Because some people behind Camaro simply did not give a damn beyond performance at worse, or at best focused on the right hand while the left one whitered to the point of uselessness. Camaro V6s, although fast, were old to look at, had no advertising (right, advertising at GM is only used on cars that don't need it.......but there are those Oldsmobile commercials that keep popping up), and was allowed to disappear from the public awareness. That is , except for Camaro enthusiast.

#5
I find it ironic that you take the position of needing to teach all of us, yet you say very little about listening to all of us. I am sure that you would clearly understand that with each vehicle that comes out (SUV or otherwise) and no word on Camaro is frustrating. I will give you the fact that you can not talk about it, and I have no gripes about it whatsoever .

But what befuddles me is that it seems most every time you come here it's to complain about either the people here or the speculations and opinions people have, or to give a 'have faith' or 'rally the troops' to defeat CAFE for trucks.

You say your purpose is to teach. Most all of us know that the industry today has to jump high hurdles, and those who are interested know the problems facing ALL..not ONLY GM automakers today. But as they say, what's the bottom line. All anyone knows, or care's about is "where's the next Camaro", "when can we stick it to Mustang", and "why did you abandon the 4th gen".

Long stories about CAFE, regulations, lawsuits, SUV's current successs, decisions made back in the 80s, million dollar anniversary wheels, or anything else simply doesn't wash when at the same time, not only are the boys at Dearborn Michagan selling almost 200,000 Mustangs, but seeming everyone (including Infinity for crissake ) view the former Camaro's market healthy enough to spend the money to dive in. Maybe some people should be working on keeping cars competitive instead of watching stock prices.

I don't expect a revelation on the next Camaro from you, but it seems a bit condesending to seemingly blame everything else for Camaro's failure but GM and some of the people deciding Camaro's direction.

For that, every criticism directed at GM over this, though perhaps at times misguided, is definately deserved.

(dives into bunker before the 'protect sacred cows' brigade arrives)

 

 

Wow -- I thought this thread had run its course but it appears it has new life.

RedPlanet - thanks for posting. I'm going to take your advice to heart and be extra care not to offend fellow members. Everyone deserves to post their opinion. I happen to agree with many of the things you have said, and am glad to see you post them here:

That makes perfect sense to me and I agree 100 percent.

It's perfectly within one's rights to have a lot of negative feelings about their car and express such things. If someone is truly embarrassed, fed up, angry with GM or 4gen's... then the logical thing to do is move on, instead of dwelling on it. All the carping does is frustrate people like me, who are still non-cynical fbody fans. I also agree that GM does NOT "owe" fans a look at product plans. What a selfish thing to demand! Yes, GM... reveal costly and original details of future products and release timing for the whole world to see here... give competitors a multi-year advance notice of what you will be doing... all for the sake of a small tribe of internet board members. Riiight. In fact I think the office records analogy holds just fine. Anyone -- care to post your social security and credit card numbers here? Didn't think so.

Again I agree 100%. What could be more exact but these words direct from a true Camaro historian and the originators?

guionM - with all due respect, a few comments about your statements:

"Everybody in the industry has to deal with these issues, not only GM."

You IMHO missed RP's point there, that GM had more of a problem dealing with such things, because GM did not react quickly enough to the SUV boom - unlike the others. And it thus cost them precious $$ which could have been used in the 1990's to make a 5gen for release right now. It amazes me sometimes to read this board... people (not necessarily you guionM) seem to think GM can just order up a new car like you order a hamburger. It takes YEARS of advance planning and $$ to make it happen, during which time it is best not to trumpet your plans lest competitors show up the same year or sooner with a similar offering. OBviously... GM made some mistakes in the 1990's... not all Zarella's fault BTW... resulting in today's hiatus. It is equally obvious to those not bitter and jaded, GM is today putting heavy emphasis on performance and specifically performance car plans. It just takes a while to make them happen. IMO a true fan will be patient and enjoy what's available now, until the new stuff starts appearing.

"I'm not sure I like what I'm hearing here, and to tell you the truth it disgusts me. Simply because a member doesn't show up at a Camaro event when YOU say or else he isn't a Camaro enthusiast is arrogant, and is an attempt by you (not the first...I recall an e-mail you once sent me) to turn others against a person who has an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours, or fall in with your view on things."

I'll be the first to admit I don't know all the background here, and generally avoid getting involved in personal stuff anyway. But can I make the comment I am disappointed you went here with your statements? RP never called that chap "arrogant"... simply said he was "frustrated". It's a real disappointment to see another board member responding to RP like this. It's also not cool IMHO to reveal email contents on a thread, since people normally assume email is confidential... else they would have posted in a thread, would they not? Frankly I'm hoping now this does not drive RP away - because I do thrive on reading his opinions and statements of hope about the next Camaro.

"It seems you are moving Camaro's performance model towards Corvette in exclusiveness, while at the same time ignoring the end of the market of bargain performance buyers, and those who simply don't want to pay that price. You have already stated many times that you don't support a mid level V8, so that means the choice could boil down to either SS, or V6. Again a disaster waiting to happen."

I for one have no objection to moving towards Corvette... although no one here really has a clue as to what GM will do on the matter and I don't really see where RP's statements make such an indication. This may be heresy... maybe the V8 Camaro IS a little too downscale. Young guys with high insurance claims maybe SHOULD NOT be affording a Z28. There. I said it. Young guys with hormone abundance - can go drive up the rates on the WRX. I for one couldn't care less about a midlevel V8. I want a supreme muscle car and have the $$ to get one. OF COURSE I want a good value. But I also want a true hi-po machine. If the next base Camaro also then has a peppy V6, I believe it will succeed as long as the other elements are in place (versatility, styling, value). Don't toss in a weak V8 just because 'hey... MUSTANG has one!'. As for a "disaster waiting to happen"... I predict the 2004 GTO is going to prove you wildly wrong.

"I find it ironic that you take the position of needing to teach all of us, yet you say very little about listening to all of us."

I disagree completely with this... everything I've read from RP indicates he is one of the few who DO listen. What a shame to see this posted here. I am fascinated to read RP's posts and learn a little more history from a clear expert in the field. I hope he gets past all this petty bickering and keeps posting now and then... though I wonder sometimes why he bothers

BTW... how many of you "true fbody fans"... have actually went and bought one recently (this is not referring to you guionM, don't know what you drive). I've bought two in the last three years, plus a used IROC.... And while I understand a lot of folks are strapped for cash for various reasons, it seems a lot also could get one and help prove there is demand but instead would rather stay on the sidelines and gripe.

One lonely Platoon Leader of the Sacred Cows Brigade has now checked in... now it's time to hear from the "Listen mister I've bought 10 Camaros in past years and am now alienated with the whole situation" crew to check in.

 

Since I'm the guy this is all directed at....maybe I should respond here.

I suppose I could move on to other things and not frustrate you or Scott...that way the status quo could remain undisturbed, and no ones' cage would get rattled.


But you know what......I think I have a disease...YES, I think I am a CAMAROPHILE!!! I eat, live, breathe and s**t CAMAROS.....I always have.

When I see my beloved Camaro neglected, mismanaged, and generally not getting what it deserves...it bugs me.....IT REALLY BUGS ME!.....and this is where I come to air my opinions.


BDnF...I always look forward to your posts, (eventhough I usually disagree). I find them interesting in an off beat sort of way.

I listened to you say that you'd like a larger Camaro
with two rear "doorlets"......the least you can do for me is to listen to what I have to say.

 

Bigdarknfast, every single point you made was very good, and I can see your view clearly. But I'll touch on a few things about how I feel & maybe you'll see my point here.

First, when I say "GM owes" it's fans, I don't mean a peek at future products, and I mentioned that. I know that maybe at the moment, GM can not say anything about Camaro in particular, and I buy that. But what I don't buy is slamming people over their frustrations over this whole episode, which was handled dismally.

Second, you say GM had more of a problem in deling with new regulations, but I beg to differ. Both Ford & Chrysler had to deal with the same issues with far LESS resources than GM has. GM's market share didn't start to significantly decline till the 1980s. If 10 people are ordered by the goverment to spend $1000 on a new tax, and one person has almost as much resources as the 2nd & 3rd richest persons combined, I'd be nut's to think the person who can most afford it would be hardest hit.

Finally, I understand that GM was late to the SUV craze, but setting aside all dislike I have for the beasts (except the H2 ), the issue I have now isn't GM putting money towards them. I know for a fact GM has some awsome things comming down the line, and I have know this since late last summer. It will take a total of at least 4 years to get them because it does take time to produce these cars. But not everyone knows someone at GM or Holden. Doug, Branden, Werm ,or even me can say post a little something now & then, but to the average person, GM lost it.

As for moving Camaro's performance toward Corvette, I have no objections towards that, but I do object in moving the performance Camaro's price and exclusitivity toward there. If you are going to also have the same performance in a cheaper package (ala the old Mustang LX 5.0) then I'm happy. But that's not the feeling I get from red's posts. At the same time, I really don't think he's looking at why the rest of the Camaro line (outside of SS) became a total failure. It's great to have a car that can run with a Vette, but is that the only thing we want out of the next Camaro? Is that enough to make sure the next Camaro doesn't end up with the same fate as the 4th gen?

I, as you, don't buy into some of the whining about Z28's power affecting insurence rates. I think I was one of the first people to mention this when I noted long ago that my Z was cheaper to insure than a same year Integra or Eclipse. I'll state for the record once again, Horsepower does NOT affect insurence rates, the amout of "youth" drivers a carline gets does! But, Camaro I feel will need a wider audience to be successful in the future. It doesn't have to sell 200,000 cars per year, but it should be broad enough to sell at least 70-80,000 (same as Monte Carlo) instead of the pityful sub-30,000 level LS1 Camaros have been averaging the final few years. That's Corvette levels!

I haven't brought 10 Camaros lately, so I'm not a collector, I'm a customer. I'm one of those "other" people who will buy a car because of it's virtues, not because it's a cult. I love my Camaro more than GM does (I still have a Camaro, do they?). I'll buy another Camaro if it's in the marketplace when I'm ready to take another multi-year loan. Am I going to wait till the cows come home just so I can buy another one? Not likely, I'll just keep the one I have, and take my business elsewhere, and that's not going to help them GM at all.

Despite my rant, I do appriciate Redplanet comming around, it shows that someone at GM is interested in what's being said about Camaro. But I draw the line when I see people with the view that I know, you don't, I'm committed, you aren't, I don't have to tell you anything, you can't question me, and I'm here to teach you, but never I'm here to listen.

I guess the point the whole point that I'm trying to make is If there's nothing to to report, say so. But don't come here with stock reports, regulatory history, or issues with the goverment, or even worse...how the market has changed. It all comes across as excuses or diversions.

Again, I'm not slamming you BDF, I'm not really slamming Red either, but it's absurd to drop by once in a blue moon, and basically make a presentation that can be very easily viewed as being from someone who is more concerned with how his GM stock options are doing, and complaining how goverment is destroying GM because it's trying to regulate SUVs or how someone is bringing lawsuits.

My message to redplanet would be: These things happens to everyone. GM has people they pay good money to deal with those problems. Now..... let's talk Camaros!

 

....here we go again......

While I certianly don't need to protect Scott here....he's a big boy....I can offer somewhat of a perspective.

This is personal to Scott...it's more than a job to him......so, yes, he takes it personally when people choose to criticize GM or him personally in a way that is demeaning, derogatory, exaggerated and sometimes flat out mean.

To say......

...is basically looking a gift horse square in the mouth....sounds like your telling him "Unless you tell me what I want to hear, then shut-up." To truly listen to both sides of an argument, you have to accept their reasoning, like it or not. In this instance, I felt like Scott was answering a lot of other comments made by others here......and other places people run into him. Let's be honest, those involved in this immediate conversation excluded, a lot of people repeat the same old tired arguements over and again and never seem to get it.

Does this mean that you can't disagree or debate (in an adult fashion) ? Of course not! It's hard enough to get him to even come here lately, I'd hate to see him leave........

Scott lives and bleeds Camaro ten times more than any of us ever hoped to....he spends nearly ALL of his free time at various Camaro and other events, meeting people and listening to what they have to say.......and more frequently that anyone would like, having to defend decisions made by his superiors as to all of the topics discussed here daily.

Do you think he is made of stone? When people say some of the things I've read, they don't seem to care that this is his life's work and it hurts to have all your efforts dismissed and only focus on the negatives that effect you personally.

I hope that my complaints are taken in the vein as being an effort to get GM to do better and not repeat teh mistakes of the past.......while understanding the position good people like Scott are placed in.

I wil say that the comment about the e-mail was a low blow........

Who helped fight the battles over getting even a small budget to keep the f-body alive? Who had to do this with NO advertising budget what so ever after 1997? Who was there when the workers at St. Therese were told the end was here? Who was there when the last Camaro was sold? (I was too, FWIW)

Do you think Scott agrees with and will defend blindly every desicion that GM makes? I could tell you stories....LOL! Ask him about the meeting concerning the Astek....I still get a good laugh about that one.

To me, this is why he invited Charlie to an event....we all know how hard it is to have something written on a message board, or in an e-mail taken in the same tone and spirit it was given.....I love to debate Scott one on one...he's a passionate person...and so am I....you really will get a better perspective on these topics.

While I'll agree guoinM has every right to call anyone on a point he sees as being wrong....the tone of his response was harsh to say the least......

I will say, that I too agree with a lot of what BD&F said......except the part about a more expensive, larger Camaro....I'd agree with guoinM on that one.

So, there's my little $0.02 worth...offering just a little defense of a good friend of mine......