You want Camaro history?..........

DATE:

October 4, 1966.

LOCATION:

GM Proving Grounds, Warren Michigan.


Vince Piggins let's Pete Estes (Chevy G.M.) drive a Z/28 prototype for the first time. Estes loves it!

Camaro heirarchy has just changed.

 

I've met Red Planet once (at the 2001 CICC show btw Doug ) and he was nothing but gracious and approachable. I really recommend everyone go and talk to him at a show. It seems like he is more than willing on this very board to explain what he thinks went wrong, some of the points that we've brought up and some we haven't. He KNOWS the 4th Gen was underfunded, admits to some mistakes in marketing and the car itself, etc. It doesn't seem like that is good enough for some here. If he disagrees on some points, he disagrees....oh well get over it. But I would just remind you that a guy like him WILL take a lot of things to heart because just by talking to him you could tell that Camaro is his passion, his job, his life! This is the guy who is fighting the hardest for us. We should all keep that it the back of our minds while we have these "friendly" debates...

 

.......Estes liked it so much, his co-workers made him a one of a kind 1968 Z/28 convertible!!

Could you get four wheel disc brakes (JL8 option) on an SS? Don't think so.

Could you get headers in the trunk on an SS? Nope.

Could you get a cross ram, 2- 4 barrel intake and fiberglass cowl hood on an SS? (I think the intake & carbs came in the trunk too) Nope.

Could you even order AC, or an automatic on a Z/28? Not until it was made more civilized and mainstream on the 2nd gens.

This is what were saying people......look at what GM did with the Z06.....and transfer that success to a 5th gen Z/28 and we'll be tickled pink!!!

 

Thats goods and all, but I'm waiting to hear what RP has to say to my posts, Z284's, and guion's.

 

Doug, I don't doubt Scott's commitment to Camaro, never have. I know he (along with many others) worked hard to keep Camaro going at a time the rest of the company wanted it gone....yesterday.

But what he said wasn't an invitation to Z to come to a Camaro event. That was a backhanded slam by questioning his commitment. No one should question anyone's commitment here on the Camaro, simply because by being a regular visitor to this site & owning a Z28 alone separates one from the masses. I look at this board as a f-body family. We disagree, but we are here for one purpose, we love Camaros!! All our other differences are just peanuts.

The e-mail comment was admittedly a low blow, and I brought this up only because it's a pattern I really don't appriciate. If someone has an issue about anyone, take it off the board. If someone disagrees with someone, that's perfectly fine. This is a message board. I may disagree with you very strongly today on something, but I may agree with you 100% tomorrow on something else (happens with Redzed and I all the time ). But I'm not going to go to a 3rd person & turn them against you, or question you. Maybe I'm just wired oddly.

I appriciate you sticking up for a friend, and if Scott & I are ever in the same town, I'd be interested in sitting down with him over a couple of beers & have a very lively conversation. Although I probally came across as harshly (if not moreso) as he did, his post seemed to show (and I am going to believe it's unintentional) someone who seemed more intrested in how stocks were doing & drifting towards "GM-think" than the concerns of the enthusiasts on this site.

That's all.

 

I understand your position......but re-read what Scott wrote....

....I think, and I should let Scott speak for himself, that this was more of a reflection on Scott's part of what he sees on his year round, weekend adventures to Camaro events. He sees people like poSSum from Canada and the Heinos from Seattle (along with many others) that will drive across country to attend and promote the Camaro hobby and ownership.

Now this doesn't mean that you have to do such drastic measures to be a true Camaro person, but these kinds of people show someone like Scott, Rick Baldick, Jon Moss and John Heinrecy the passion and depth of enthusiasm for this car.....to be honest, I don't put a lot of stock in message board posters as being hardcore enthusiasts....you might be, but it's pretty easy to be a hero from the comforts of your living room...

I honestly didn't see a "back-handed slam" there or even a real questioning of anyone's commitment.....but then again, I know where Scott's coming from I guess.....I actually saw his comments as an invitation to sit down face to face....he won't bite! LOL!

Let's try to move on and leave the personal and private stuff out of what truly is a good debate on the mission of the Z/28.

 

By you knowing him, I'm sure you probally have a better understanding of what he's trying to say as opposed to someone who just knows him from a message board and a few e-mails.

Now, back to the thread...

 

Thanks Guion, IZ28 and others for coming to my defense.

Scott has been gracious enough to invite me to certain Camaro events afew times in the past.

I have also invited Scott to some of ours, here in Chicago, (it's amazing, when you put about 8 million people in one place....enough of them own enough Camaros, so you can throw some pretty impressive shows without leaving town).

We've never made the connection...but hopefully, one day, we will.

I have the sneaking suspicion that Scott feels, a one on one with him will succeed in making me forget all about my ferver for the Z/28, and thus remove a thorn from his side. Well, forget it buddy.....unless you're a master hypnotist, (and even if you are), it ain't gonna happen. (SARCASM)


Anyway....thanks again guys...and let's stop arguing about this....AND START ARGUING ABOUT BRINGING BACK THE Z/28 !

 

Good evening, all,

Red Planet here…..Vice President in Charge of Pot Stirring….

This thread has certainly hit on a number of issues…and I took a few days to ponder the various points of view before chiming in once again. (go get yourself a beverage….this is gonna be long!) (in fact, I will have to post this in sections….)

Understand that these are my opinions…not necessarily those of the company I work for….additionally, please take the time, if you ARE going to read this long epistle – to read the whole way through…..

Subject #1…… The nomenclature (Z28 vs SS)

This is the least of my concerns for the time being, quite frankly. If pressed to say what my biggest priority would be in the larger picture…I’d have to say ‘to ensure that the next generation ‘pony/sports car’ is worthy of the name Camaro.’

Interestingly enough, the thread, as I recall, had a lot to do with which nomenclature should appear on the ‘ultimate’ Camaro and whether or not the 4th Gen was really a Z28. Many of us have been going around and around about that subject………yet I find it interesting that no one, as I recall – has mentioned that we are ALL wrong……….

The ultimate Camaro – quite frankly was the ZL1. True, there were only 69 of them produced in the 1969 model year….but when you talk about flat-out performance, nothing touched a ZL1 until the very end of the 4th gen.

In fact, when my good friend Matt Murphy and I were talking back about 3 years ago, we both lamented that it was not in the cards to get the LS6 dropped into the 4th gen Camaro. With the donation of John Heinricy’s ‘captured fleet’ 2001 Camaro SS – and a whole bunch of parts from a Z06, Matt was able to create an incredible 4th gen Project Camaro that we immediately put on the show circuit. (not to mention giving the keys to a whole bunch of journalists)

Matt’s company, GMMGInc is now building a limited number of these cars for the public. (Ask Jason D. or Chris F. what they think of the ‘new’ ZL1….don’t take my word for it)

Now…before anyone goes into convulsions – I’m not saying that the ZL1 should or should not become a model within a future entry……..but just thought I’d stir the pot some more!


Subject #2 -- “Why GM may not necessarily owe it to you to tell you about the future.” Please read a post that my very good friend, Doug Harden posted about a week ago……..a very very very wise man! Now……..please, let’s move on.
Rest assured – GM does not purposely try to upset you.


(to be continued)

 

(part 2 in a very long post!)


Subject #3 --- “ GM should listen to me! They don’t know what they’re doing!!!!!”

Many of you and I are very much alike. I can remember going to work for General Motors wayyyyyyyyyyy back in 1977 (sorry, but it does not seem possible that I’ve been here for over 25 years………) and I had just arrived after being a sales manager for a Chevrolet dealership. I was full of p**s and vinegar and was ready to tell everyone at Chevrolet and GM ‘how it should be done’ and ‘what’s wrong with GM.’ Well….a funny thing happened…..the more I yelled and carried on, the more I found out that there are many many VERY GOOD reasons for why things happen….and most of those are transparent to the public.
And I found out that more often or not, I was wrong due to my ignorance of not understanding all of the issues behind decisions. Suffice it to say that there is a lot of things that happen within GM and the auto industry as a whole that I do not agree with. But I also know that there are many good reasons why things are the way they are. And for what it’s worth, for those of you who do not know me, watching the Camaro and Firebird exit the market nearly killed me……still drives me crazy. Now…my point in this little trip down memory lane is this: Don’t ever assume that the solution is as easy as you think it is. Invariably, you probably do not have nearly enough information ………we’ll come back to this subject a little later…….

Subject #4 – “Listening to the customer”.

Now….I know some of you may think that I am deaf…that I am not hearing you. I DO hear you! While I cannot say that I read every post (because I simply do not have the time to do so) I monitor several sites ….one in particular is this site and this particular subject….5th gen. And please, do not take offense to this next statement…but I cannot recall one idea from this site that has not been given to me by at least a dozen people in person.

THAT’S NOT TO SAY THAT YOU SHOULD NOT POST YOUR IDEAS!

I welcome them and so does just about everyone else on this site…..and I hope that you will continue to do so…..because you never know when one or more of you will have one heck of an idea that no one has ever thought ot. Good example: cup holders! People have been drinking inside their vehicles, I assume, since the first car was built…but until someone finally made the connection……we tended to have no place to sit the cup! Now, I'm not saying that cup holders were the end-all to the industry.....but think about it....all cars have them today....and it was a customer that brought it to the attention of the manufacturers that it was important to have in a vehicle.

I know that some of you think that the people who I meet in person may be reluctant to confront me with their thoughts and opinions….. While I’m sure that some enthusiasts are somewhat careful in what they say to me, the majority have no reservations whatsoever in telling me >>>>> WHAT THEY REALLY THINK!!!!!!!!<<<<<<
I’ll never forget taking a preproduction ’98 Z28 to the I.C.C. convention in the Pocono Mountains in the summer of 1997. One avid Camaro Enthusiast nearly knocked the crowd over trying to get me to yell “you call that a Camaro???? It looks like a DAMN CATFISH!”

Funny thing…..that same fellow….Andy… has bought 3 new Camaros since 1998……and we still laugh at that story whenever we run into each other. Trust me….my fellow enthusiasts are not bashful……and they have no qualms about sharing their thoughts and opinions with me………
I like to say that no matter what we do with Camaro (or Corvette or Firebird) 50% will love it, 50% will hate it….and 40% of the 50% that hate it will like it within a year.)

(to be continued, yet again)

 

(part three of this epistle.....)


Now……why do I discount what I read on the internet?

Let me propose something to you. If a fellow came up to you on the street and told you that he would get you a great deal on a ‘widget’ and could save you 20% -- and just give him the check…he’ll be right back with your ‘widget’ – would you do it? I think most of you, if not all of you would say “hell no!”

Now I realize that this is an oversimplification….but think about it. I don’t necessarily know most of you. There are even a few of you out there that refuse to tell the rest of us what you do for a living.

If we are going to commit hundreds of millions of dollars on a new vehicle, you can bet your exhaust pipes that I’m gonna want to know who it is that I’m talking to! And so, while I read your ideas, I may tend to discount them….because I don’t know if you are 35 years old with an income of 60K a year….or a 14 year old – (and that doesn’t mean I don’t need to worry about what 14 year olds think…because I know that I want them to buy our products when they buy their cars and trucks in the future) or……perhaps you might be a ‘troll’ trying to stir people up …….. That’s why when we do product clinics, we always make sure to separate the groups into ‘likeness’ – for instance:

>Female V6 Mustang owners under 35
>Female V6 Mustand owners over 35
>Male V6 Mustang owners under 35
>Male V6 Mustang owners over 35
>Female V6 Camaro owners under 35……….

and so on and so on so that we talk with V8 owners, V6 owners, Mustang, Eclipse, etc etc etc. And…lastly, we also talk to people who have responded that they are in the market in the next 18 months for a particular type of car. All in all, we might talk to hundreds…even thousands of people when researching a new product, interior, etc. We DO filter…using demographic info. And here’s a kicker…..in many of the clinics, the attendees MAY NOT know who it is they are talking to. (although we usually tell them at the end……….)

Now…is this perfect? No way. But suffice it to say that we do listen. And I listen. And I also know that I can learn a LOT from standing around in the parking lot late at night with a bunch of enthusiasts at one of the many Camaro/Fcar events ….that’s when the real ‘pearls’ or insights really come out. (Mr. Harden can, I believe, vouch for that ……)

 

(yet another part to this post......refill the beverage)


Subject #5 – (and this is in response to one of you who felt it was inappropriate for me to address one particular person in one of my posts.) Hey Guy….you mention something about a private email I sent to you. Unfortunately I do not recall what it is that I may have said in that email that got you upset. I guess the incredible volume of emails may be the reason for no recall. My point in the recent post was that everyone has an opinion. However, opinions do tend to have a regional flavor. Additionally, I was taking issue with a statement to the fact that (and I don’t mean this to be an exact quote) “it is an embarrassment to drive a 4th gen.” I gotta tell you – there are a lot of 4th gen owners out there that would take a LOT of offense to that statement. And, I guess because I’m very passionate about Camaros….I take offense to it also. Now…I’m not saying that a 4th gen is perfect….far from it…..but I can say this: The 4th gen will do anything a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Gen Camaro can do in terms of performance and handling…….and do it better with the A/C cranked up and the stereo blaring away. (assuming everything is stock0

Now, this might be unfair, but we get a lot of phone calls…..myself as well as a lot of people within GM that worked on the Camaro. We try to listen to everyone. But I gotta tell you…and you may not like it…..but I think I would put a little more thought into what someone tells me that demonstrates the passion for the product by actions, not by telephone calls. Again, I’m not saying that “well, you don’t come to shows….so you don’t count!”
What I AM saying is that everyone needs to understand – just as you have tried to tell me – that there are many opinions out there – and that yours or mine are not always the right way to go.
So…if I upset you, I’m sorry.

Subject #6 – “The Passionate Red Planet”

There are those within GM that would tell you that I’m just a little bit (or a lot) nuts. I suspect there are those that look at someone who would hitch his (or her) wagon to a falling star and wonder if that person was certifiable. And perhaps I am. Many of you have heard me say that I fell in love with the Camaro the first time I laid my eyes on the first Camaro our dealership received in early September of 1966. Yes, Corvettes are magnificent machines….but in my ‘certifiable’ mind, the Camaro has always had ‘soul’ – and I don’t know that every car does have ‘soul.’ (someone said in a meeting not too long ago: “If Corvette is Chevrolet’s heart and soul, then Camaro is its blood and guts.” I’m crazy about the Camaro…certifiable. And thus, the passion comes through in some of my posts. Probably not the most Political Correct thing to allow to happen………but if I ever lose that passion, I hope someone runs me over with a Z28 or SS and kills me.

 

(finally, the last post on my response....)

Our Camaro Enthusiasts are some of the most brand loyal people to the Chevrolet lineup. I believe many of us think alike. (I found out that I am NOT THE ONLY ONE to decorate his house in ‘Camaro’

Now…I’m not here to lead you to believe that I am the only one with this passion. The fact that so many of you spend so much time on this site,…and many more sites similar to it…..tells me that we have more in common than we probably realize—and one of those common denominators is passion for the Camaro.

This is a free country. We have free speech. And when some of you criticize GM, you might be surprised to find that I sometimes agree! I don’t post as such….but I agree nevertheless. We’ve made some incredibly foolish decisions. Our Board and our previous leaders hired some people from the outside that did not have passion for the product. I nearly went berserk after the “Z man” took over the company……..and I celebrated very richly when he left! I celebrated once again when Mr. Lutz came aboard. I don’t agree with everything he’s doing, but I’m proud to work for him—‘cause the man HAS PASSION FOR THE PRODUCT! (oopppss….digressing again…..) Back to criticizing GM…….I do, however, take exceptions to accusations when they are unfounded….and by unfounded, I mean……not looking at the bigger picture.

Here’s a perfect exampler of what I’m talking about: I think most of you would claim that the 4th gen Camaro was the least successful Camaro of the 4 generations. Look at the numbers! The 4th gen had the lowest overall volume!

But you PROBABLY would be surprised to find out that it actually captured a marginally larger portion of the retail passenger car market over the entire run than did the 3rd gen! (go look….the numbers are public record.) (it’s because the “pie” -- or total passenger car market within the United States --- got much smaller as SUVs, Trucks, etc came into the market. See….if you only look at the production numbers, it is easy to ‘declare’ something….but you usually need to look a little deeper……… Now…I’m also not saying that it was a raging success. But I guess that I’m proud to say that the 2002 Camaro SS is the fastest, most powerful, most fuel efficient, and cleanest (in terms of emissions) that we ever produced in the history of Camaro.

Again….I will never say that GM is perfect or that we are always right. But when I see something written that may not be true, I will often post with a reply. Perhaps, in some cases, it is to try to educate. Perhaps it is from my experience.

I know this: I would never tell a computer technician how to fix my computer! I would never tell an architect how to build my house. (that is not a shot at you Mr. H…….I’m only using it as an example….) I would never tell my best friend, who is a Doctor of Internal Medicine how to treat a patient…and I would never tell my eye doctor how to fix my vision……..

And please! – I’m not saying that you are all ignorant and have no idea of how to run a car company. But I would ask you to at least consider an insider’s opinion. And realize that there just MAY be reasons for things that happen that you may never have considered. And yes, you might have a cousin or neighbor that is in the business…but I assure you that hearing some stories is not the same thing as being on the inside.
Here’s a “for instance.” My best friend, as I mentioned before is a Doctor of Internal Medicine. Now….most of us know that when someone has a headache, you should take an aspirin, right?

Not necessarily…..

As a medical Doctor, you would know that there are any number of things that should be looked at…..is the patient on blood thinner? If so, Aspirin is NOT the way to go!

And lastly…someone mentioned that I perhaps thought that I was the only one “committed” to the Camaro.

No, I don’t believe that.

I believe there are a lot of people that were committed to Camaro. And I believe that there are a lot of you out there committed to the Camaro. Prime example: Mr. Harden has knocked himself out putting together some really incredible gatherings for Camaro Enthusiasts everywhere. He and his club (C.I.C.C.) put together one helluva Pace Car Gathering in Indianapolis in 2000. One year later, he and his club put together a 35th Anniversary Birthday Bash for the Camaro at Indy Raceway Park in conjuction with the 50th Anniversary of NHRA. No…..you do not have to put together shows and events to be committed……..but I use him as an example of someone who I would never question in terms of commitment.

It brings to mind an old story about a breakfast of ham and eggs.

To put together a breakfast of Eggs and Ham, The Chicken has to be cooperative, BUT THE PIG HAS TO BE COMMITTED! I gotta tell you…..those of us who will work in the future on the possible replacement of a V8 Sports Car will have to be committed….because Mr. Lutz will accept nothing less. (Thank God!!!)

I may not question your commitment…but understand that no matter what you say, most of your livelihoods will not hinge on whether or not we get it right. And no matter what we do, some of you may play ‘armchair quarterback.’ That is NOT a slam……but I guess I want you to know that I am doing my best to show my commitment.

OK……….this, I believe, may go down in the Guiness Book of Worlds Records as the longest post in history.

If I have offended some of you….I am sorry. It is not my intent to purposely upset our customers and our enthusiasts. However, when discussing a subject as passionate and inspiring as the Camaro….I guess that’s gonna happen sometimes unless I vow to never post again.

I will continue to keep listening…..and monitoring this site.

And I will continue to keep posting…unless, of course, the majority of you wish me not to.

And I may choose to hit back when you hit GM if, in my knowledge, your hit is not justified.

Meanwhile, a very personal note in closing: We’re coming to the end of another year. Please….have a safe and Happy Holiday Season. Enjoy the time with your family and loved ones. Now is a good time to tell those you love that they matter to you.
And lastly….please…..I’m begging you………don’t drink and drive. It isn’t worth it. Wear your seat belts…….we put them there for a reason.

Happy Holidays – and thank you, again, for your love and passion for the Camaro.

Red Planet signing off…………

 

Gee Red your fingers must be tired!

....and, if you have a good eye doctor, he will seek your input for the best result.

 

to the Red Planet
I sat back and enjoyed a bag of extreme butter popcorn and milk and still had more to read by the time I was done with it all.

Thanks for the reality punch there Scott, I sometimes forget that no matter what decisions GM makes, they make them because of several factors which are probably invisable to me or I have yet to consider.

On a personal note, you make me proud to be a member of Camaro enthusiasm, and for that matter, even the human race. You wake up everyday w/ ambition and a hope that will never be extinguished. You fight everyday for all of us who have no impact (besides in statistics) but wish to one day see a new Camaro. We are relying on you and you will not let us down. From the bottom of my Camaro heart, let me say thank you for giving me hope, and keeping the soul of the Camaro alive.