Doug Harden

The REAL Z/28's had the slash........you know the 1967 - 1969 models (1967's didn't have emblems, but were real Z/28's none the less)

When GM discovered the cash cow the Z/28 was it began to water down it's mission with automatic trannys and AC...even lost the slash......then it all went to h e l l in a hand basket.

As far as I can tell, minor trim changes do not a major styling change make.....the 4th gens had the RS ground effects, SS styling changes, etc.....while I'll agree it was minor at best, it certianly rivaled the 3rd gen years for any substantiative changes..........I personally thanks goodness that the 4th gens were not exposed to the stripe and sticker treatment.

To those of us that champion the slash, it is in hopes that the Z/28 will return to it's mission and the rest of the model line up can do what it pleases..........IF we ever get another one that is................

BigDarknFast

quote from Doug Harden: Some homework for you: do a little research on front suspensions for example. 3gen: macpherson strut, with recirculating ball steering. 4gen: SLA, with rack and pinion steering. If those are the same... I have some land to sell you

As for the body panels... I couldn't care less what arcane program they came from... all I know is I am glad to have them. They have not doubt helped contain insurance rates over the years, esp. for things like hail damage.

It was a mistake to let the Camaro adventure lapse like it will soon... but let's not condemn without complete knowledge of future events

Doug Harden

I can assure you that I know exactly the design and make up of all gens of f-body suspensions......I just didn't realize that I needed to delve into details when making general comments concerning minor engineering changes to an otherwise unchanged platform. No-one said they were the same, just a variation on a theme........tell me the difference from the firewall rearward........oh wait, there isn't any.

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It was a mistake to let the Camaro adventure lapse like it will soon... but let's not condemn without complete knowledge of future events

I can't really comment on this.......what are you trying to say?

Z28Wilson

Hey Doug, I might agree with you but something holds me back. I think we're in agreement that Ford has been committed to Mustang, yet has ridden on basically the same Fairmont platform since what, the late 70's???? Ford knows it's time for a change to a modern platform with the next car, and I think GM knew there couldn't be a 5th Gen built on the current F-body platform and be taken seriously. I'd at least give them credit for that.

kizz

I realize this was just an honest mistake, and I realize you were corrected already, but it does hint at your lack of knowledge about the third gen. hard for some of you guys to analyze something before you're familiar with it, eh?. Both pictures are 85-87. No 88 or 90 anywhere.

Also I do realize that the third gen camaro got fewer updates than the Firebird, but I can tell you this: Put ANY stock 82-86 Firebird or Trans am in front of me and I can narrow it down to ONE year, guaranteed.
82 - unique wheels, unique interior.
83 - new wheels, new interior, new hood bird
84 - new wheels, new ground effects
85 - total restyling update, whole new look, new wheels
86 - similar to 85, new 3rd brake light mandatory.
87 - total restyle update, whole new look, unique crosslace wheels T/A GTA. only yellow formula among 87-90. T/A is the only 87-90 with the 85-87 huge hood bird option
88 - new style crosslace wheels (till end of 3rd gen). big hood bird discontinued.
89-90 similar to 88, minor color and decal changes here & there
91 - whole restyle, brand new look
92 - very similar to 91
87 - 90 were similar except for some wheel variations and occasional badges / decals, so i can narrow that to within 2 years usually. 91-92 were nearly identical, but not 100% identical. I can't tell those apart usually. Variety slowly died out, starting in the third gen, but even with camaros you can usually tell the year right down to one / maybe 2 years year usually by color, CFI hood and front bumper in 82-83 or lack thereof, front bumper/grill/inserts varies from year to year, taillights varied, so did ground effects, spoiler, decals, colors available etc. You simply don't have as much variety in the 4th gen. Those who claim that the cookiecutter / less models approach is better are just fooling themselves, IMHO.

As far as model differences: put ANY thirdgen firebird or trans am in front of me. I can tell you what model it is, guaranteed.
82-86 - base bird, firebird S/E, and trans am. Each one looks totally unique!
87-92 - base bird, firebird formula, T/A, T/A GTA. each one looks totally unique!
Not my fault the Camaros were more similar to each other, but yeah they were. You can still distinguish any IROC as being unique. Same goes for most base camaros and Berlinettas. Z28/RS is where the most similarity lies, after RS was introduced.

Nobody has disputed my argument on lack of engine choices. Because it's indisputable. I think it was either 83 or 84, there were FIVE, maybe SIX engines available, if I'm forgetting one! Actually yeah it WAS six in 83: Iron Duke TBI (base bird, S/E), V6 2bbl (base bird, S/E), V6 HO 2bbl (S/E only), L69 HO 4bbl (T/A), LU5 CFI TBIx2 (T/A), LG4 4bbl (base bird, S/E, T/A). If camaros are the only thing you know, substitute camaro for base bird, Berlinetta for S/E, Z28 for T/A, and the engine choices were the same, I believe. No third gen year had less than FOUR engine choices. During the 4th gen, it was TWO maximum! just one V6 and one V8 to choose from. cookiecutter.. no thanks.

GT

IZ28

Only the 1st Gens were real Z28's?? No. The / was stupid, it was just, there. Yeah an Auto and AC, there goes the car. Maybe if 4ths had stripes and stuff they might have stood out more or maybe had been actually better looking or distinguishable. You know, a racy look, stripes, which have found their way onto musclecars from the start 1 way or another, but not the 4th Gen. Things changed yearly during the Third Gen, even if it was something little. But lets get more into this. Since you say the 4ths changed almost the same amount LOL.

During the Third Gen Camaro, which there were 6 models throughout, there were 3 different bumpers front and back, 3 different GFX, 4 different taillights, 5 different rims, 4 different tire sizes, 4 different styled hoods, 2 different door edge guards, 2 different parking lamps, 4 different grills, 6 different interior looks, 4 different types of spoilers, 4 different transmissions, 2 different axles, 4 different gear ratios, and 10 different engines. There could be some things I didn't list too. The 4th Gen doesn't even come close, AT ALL. They only had 2 significant styles while having the exact same bumpers on all models, 5 years in a row, twice. Lets not even discuss number of engines. Significant Third changes for all models are 82-84, 85-90, and 91-92. And Camaros actually changed more than Firebirds did if you want to get really technical and count every little thing.

Jason E

I agree with kizz...

Third gens were special because EVERY MODEL was special. As a bigger third gen buff than a 4th gen one (despite the fact I own a 4th), I can tell you I can tell a difference with many of them. I can get a model year down to about 2 years with EVERY model pretty much (save for base Firebirds).

For christ sakes, I was so sick of straining my neck when I'd see a 4th gen to find out if it was a base or a Z, when I did buy a Z I made sure you could TELL it was a V8...know what??

In the year 2002, I have to drive a white car with orange stripes so oncoming traffic knows I'm packing more than a 3.8

BigDarknFast

quote from Doug Harden: Incorrect. If you were the historian you claim to be, you'd know that one of the significant design changes from 3gen to 4gen was to reduce body opening sizes, such as the rear hatch and T-top openings, for enhanced body stiffness ( = roadhandling), crashworthiness and NVH reduction. The dual airbags are also aft of the firewall, IIRC Hmm... I don't know exactly where the controller for the state-of-the-art Traction Control System/ABS is placed... maybe its ahead of the firewall... with the digital controller for the engine and electronic automatic transmission, and the body control module providing retained accessory power.

T-top stowage was enhanced with the 4gen's... instead of the cumbersome storage bag, the car sprouted convenient notched slots for the tops - which themselves sprouted rubber edges for both a better rain seal and easier handling on hot days.

The only argument you can still leverage now is to squirm around about what constitutes a "major" vs a "minor" engineering change... so go ahead, I'll read your rationalizations with interest. You think a switch from struts/recirc ball to SLA/rack&pinion is minor... umm... OK

My comment about "condemning without knowledge" sprang from this:
Unless you're some kind of VP at GM with inner knowledge of (1) Who exactly decided to kill the current car's production without having a graceful transition to the next gen (and why), and (2) corresponding knowledge of GM's future plans in the segment, you cannot possibly have a clue as to how committed GM is right now towards bringing Camaro back. Has it occurred to you that perhaps GM is not ALLOWED to build a Camaro right now? (I thought I read somehwere that the CAW contract at St Therese forbids GM from building Camaros elsewhere for a few years).

And this stuff about having a flowing cornucopia of engine choices... it's like walking into a gun shop looking for the best 9mm automatic you can buy. The salesman instead shows you a bunch of junky overpriced 40 cal's from China with a forced grin and says "hey they're pretty much the same." WRONG. And one of the reasons GM has been able to offer a wonderful engine like the LS1 in today's Fbodies is BECAUSE they didn't also have to support a bunch of other variants in their manufacturing, marketing, parts and service (actually most of the real extra cost of option proliferation is in the manufacturing).

As for the 3gens getting a lot of updates:

I agree with this. C'mon... who here really believes... moving a 3rd brake light, or an "IROC" sticker elsewhere on the door is a significant change? I put some pre-88 IROC wheels on my 90 Camaro... it would take a close look by a Camaro historian to figure out what year my car really is.

Z284ever

They get NO brownie points from me.

We should be hearing engineering tidbits and seeing artist's renderings of a 5th gen which is right around the corner now.....just like the Mustang guys.

The fact that we are not, shows a failure to thrive.

BigDarknFast

Should GM also be struggling to meet profit and quality targets, like Ford is doing? Last time I checked, the goal of a corporation was to make profit, and produce high quality - both of which GM is doing handily.

I believe Camaro's time will return, even if it's not "right around the corner" just yet.

IZ28

Maybe GM is just really good at keeping secrets.

Z284ever

Two things:

1) My GM stock is worth ONE HALF of it's value from 15 months ago.

2) No official word on a new Camaro.

Z284ever

That's right! I almost forgot about that one.

Doug Harden

It was not "just there".......tell that to the Trans Am racers of the late 60's..........you know, the people the car was built for in the first place.......

We obviously have two different visions of what a Z/28 really is.........oh yeah, the topic of this thread!

I'm old enough to remember the original REAL Z/28's and understood their mission....I'd like to have another REAL Z/28 with the same mission, ala the Z06......therefore I choose to use the slash as a rally flag to champion our cause....you have accepted the current version as it's mission.....but choose to ridicule those of us who have this ferver....so we disagree, no need to get snippy about it.

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Maybe if 4ths had stripes and stuff they might have stood out more or maybe had been actually better looking or distinguishable. ..............

This is your opinion....mine is simply the opposite....

Doug Harden

Thanks for keeping this debate at the 4th grade level.......real nice....I didn't attack and ridicule you, how about sticking to facts and leave the personal stuff out of this.

Tha fact is you keep refering to things that have nothing to do with the fact that you can interchange the entire rear suspension from a 1982 model onto a 2002 model and vis-versa....oh sure the rearends are different lengths, but I still wouldn't call that a major design change. To bring up stuff like ABS, RAP, etc....misses my point all together....

The front suspension redesign was by all accounts of those involved, one of the only things (body panels included) that they were able to accomplish after damned near loosing the car after the GM-80 debacle. Was it a welcome change? Of course....

I have had hours of conversations with people involved and have heard them lament the lack of funding commitment from the bean counters during this period. Hell, GM was within weeks of filing for banctrupcy in the late 90's.

Do I understand they did the best they could? Of course!

Does it make me happy? NO.

Do I think they did everything they could to keep the car current and near the leading edge of automotive design and future planning.....of course not.

Do you honestly think Ron Zarrella gave a damn about this car?

Do I think Bob Lutz will turn things around? I sure as heck hope so! Not holding my breath however......

Quote:

My comment about "condemning without knowledge" sprang from this:


Unless you're some kind of VP at GM with inner knowledge of (1) Who exactly decided to kill the current car's production without having a graceful transition to the next gen (and why), and (2) corresponding knowledge of GM's future plans in the segment, you cannot possibly have a clue as to how committed GM is right now towards bringing Camaro back. Has it occurred to you that perhaps GM is not ALLOWED to build a Camaro right now? (I thought I read somehwere that the CAW contract at St Therese forbids GM from building Camaros elsewhere for a few years).

I've at least done some homework and had numerous conversations with people involved..........and I'll flat out tell you, there is nothing to lead me to believe that the Camaro, as we know it, will ever return. Will GM ever offer another affordable V8, RWD sports car? I sure as heck hope so, but don't hold your breath.

Is performance dead at GM? Of course not! It will simply come in very different flavors than what we had in the Camaro.

After the nasty, personal responses I've endured on this forum for simply having my own opinion I shudder to think of the wrath that GM will have to endure if they ever do bring it back.....

Quote:

And this stuff about having a flowing cornucopia of engine choices...

I'm guessing this is aimed at someone else......I'll let them fight their own battles.......even though in my opinion your logic is short sighted at best..... I do understand the economics of it, but I don't think it translates into more sales.

:Old tired flame suit on and ready for another round of WWF: