quote from Doug Harden: ...So... according to your yardstick, isn't the Cavalier a success?

Well I will grant you this, you are saying (in a negative, roundabout way) what you DO want. And IF all the current Camaro had to offer was "looking good with drag radials" then I agree that would be damning praise indeed. But it amazes me that people are so jaded as to not appreciate the roadhandling of the current Camaro. You'd think from this discussion it was a top-fuel rail dragster with tiny front tires How then does it achieve higher roadholding (.84g vs .83g) and shorter 70-0 stopping (188 ft vs 196 ft) than the supposedly new-age Acura RSX Type-S (data, believe it or not, from Car & Drivel!). I could go on... but we all know, the current Camaro is the best ever and is STILL TODAY a tremendous performance value! Let's look at some of these other ideas...

"doesn't weigh over 3600 lb"... When you're out shopping, better cross off the new Mustang Cobra with 390 rated hp and the new GTO with 360 rated hp (plus 405 hp the following year).

"doesn't have the length of a minivan"... If size bothers you that much perhaps you are actually a budding sport import fan and just don't know it yet

"only holds two adults and two small passengers"... my Fbody's work fine for our family (Wife, adult-sized child at the wheel, and two little tykes ) If it doesn't fit your lifestyle, move along to a nice big sedan like a Marauder (OOPS that would be TOO HEAVY)

"hanging out over front wheel centerline by four feet"... I'm not a fan of big overhangs either... but IMHO the overall styling and chassis strength more than make up for this issue. BTW you will never be happy with a Daytona Charger

"floor hump, dash, hatch I don't know how to open without spilling water"... all this suggests, is that maybe the car is not for you.

"useable trunk"... you mean a cargo area that holds hundreds of pounds of lumber like this?

http://www.mwshowgo67.com/formula99/utility.htm

(Try that in a Mustang!)

"doors too long".... well here's the car for you:

http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/echo/

"solid rear axle"... then DO NOT buy one of these:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mus...Mustang_Mach_1

So there you go... it's not too much to ask, even today. I hope these simple guidelines help you find a car you can be satisfied with.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigDarknFast

...So... according to your yardstick, isn't the Cavalier a success?

Not if they lost $2,000 on every one they sold!

You'd think from this discussion it was a top-fuel rail dragster with tiny front tires How then does it achieve higher roadholding (.84g vs .83g) and shorter 70-0 stopping (188 ft vs 196 ft) than the supposedly new-age Acura RSX Type-S (data, believe it or not, from Car & Drivel!).

Drive both of them. Then come back and tell us which feels more nimble. Sure the Camaro has high limits, but below those limits and at slower speeds it feels like a BOAT.


"doesn't weigh over 3600 lb"... When you're out shopping, better cross off the new Mustang Cobra with 390 rated hp and the new GTO with 360 rated hp (plus 405 hp the following year).

Imagine how great they would be if they weighed in at 3200 lb.

"doesn't have the length of a minivan"... If size bothers you that much perhaps you are actually a budding sport import fan and just don't know it yet

All that wasted space doesn't bother you? Who wants a performance car with wasetful (and heavy) overhangs and a size longer than most family sedans. 4 words: Smaller, Lighter, Faster, Cheaper. That's what we need. An affordable Camaro that is true to its roots, but also capable of winning over a new generation.

"useable trunk"... you mean a cargo area that holds hundreds of pounds of lumber like this?

Hatchback > Trunk

"doors too long".... well here's the car for you:

http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/echo/

[i] Kinda harsh. They did have the longest doors of any car sold in the US. Kinda tough to own in the city.[/]

 

"Not if they lost $2,000 on every one they sold!"

According to the criteria offered, the Cavalier is a success. GM tolerates the lack of profit for the sake of gaining young buyers who will hopefully trade up.

"Drive both of them. Then come back and tell us which feels more nimble. Sure the Camaro has high limits, but below those limits and at slower speeds it feels like a BOAT."

The Camaro is precisely 8 ft more nimble than the new-tech Acura when stopping from 70. As for boatlike, which was more boatlike, the Mustang Bullitt completing Motor Trend's slalom at 63.4 MPH or the WS6 Trans Am doing it in 64.6?

"Imagine how great they would be if they weighed in at 3200 lb."

Seriously, how many really care about 170 lb when they have 310+ hp under their right foot (Firebird Formula weighs 3369 lb).

"All that wasted space doesn't bother you? Who wants a performance car with wasetful (and heavy) overhangs and a size longer than most family sedans. 4 words: Smaller, Lighter, Faster, Cheaper. That's what we need. An affordable Camaro that is true to its roots, but also capable of winning over a new generation."

Camaros have been living large (ie about 185-195 in. overall length) since 1967... again, who's counting a few inches? BTW the current Camaro is shorter than today's Impala and Taurus. Are you saying that being 9 or 10 in. longer than the current (stubby-looking IMHO) Mustang is what killed the current Camaro?

"Hatchback > Trunk"

On this I agree! I hope the next Mustang has a hatch... although I doubt it will.

"Kinda tough to own in the city."

Simple solution: MOVE OUT of the city

 

BD&F,

I almost thought we were having a rational, adult debate...after you left out the personal attacks...but you seem to not be able to comprehend that a better car is all we are hoping for.......you insist on rude little flimsy arguments just to get in the last word...logic be damned.

I love my 1994 Z/28.....but I'd love to hope that the next gen won't be a 20 year re-run like the last one.....

Have fun...I'm done here.......BTW, you're wrong......on all counts.

 

The size of the current Camaro doesn't bother you at all?

If it were even bigger, would that bother you?

BDnF, I have to say....if GM could only find another 150,000 or so guys like you per year...they'd never have to modernize the Camaro.

 

This is an interesting point. How exactly do you quantify a bargain?

To me a 4th gen Z/28, on a 20 year old platform, with interior material quality barely comparable to Neon and woefully outdated styling and proportions.....is NOT a bargain at $25K.

Maybe it's a bargain at $18K...but I still wouldn't part with the $18K for it.

Now, if we had a new Z/28, with all the things that Doug mentioned on the 350Z, and with a thumpin' V8, for $30K....I'd call that a screaming bargain.

 

I think you're being pretty harsh. Is the Mustang GT any better of a bargain at maybe 23 or 24 grand, but with a decidedly inferior powertrain, similar interior quality, same outdated chassis and comparable overall quality?

The dilema here is not to build a modern Camaro that performs well at a 350Z-like price. There's already a lot of cars out there that perform well in the mid $30,000 range. One of the biggest attractions of Camaro to me, and probably to many others, is that it could always do what most of the other players in the market do but it does it cheaper.

 

Well, at least they throw in a nice set of wheels.....

Quote:

The dilema here is not to build a modern Camaro that performs well at a 350Z-like price. There's already a lot of cars out there that perform well in the mid $30,000 range. One of the biggest attractions of Camaro to me, and probably to many others, is that it could always do what most of the other players in the market do but it does it cheaper.

On this we are in complete agreement! I want all of those things ..but at a Chevy price.

But a Chevy price alone...without any of those things...is no bargain at all to me.

 

Doug H - I have no issues with you, instead just challenged your positions taken on the Camaro. If you are offended, then my apologies... I was hoping you could take a joke, guess that's the problem with the Internet.

I agree there are things needing updating on the Camaro. As I said, I'm not a fan of long overhangs for example. It's good for Camaro fans to point out what needs improved. But can't we also celebrate the good parts of the Camaro without being called petty names like a "yes man"? Speaking of immature....

My mentions of the Marauder and Mach I... were to highlight the apparent impossibility of pleasing certain buyers. You guys are an incredibly demanding bunch... I suppose that is good, it improves the car; but I believe reality also has a place here. If the next Camaro gets much below 3200-3400 lb, it will either end up with no back seat (NO LONGER a Camaro then, IMHO) or it will be so tiny it will resemble a WRX coupe. Both prospects make me say "ugh". What's a GM decisionmaker reading this supposed to conclude, if a bunch of unrealistic constraints are listed without careful thought? Or if apparent Camaro fans have nothing but negatives for the car? Camaro a 20-year rerun? I don't think so.

Another poster asked my opinion of a larger Camaro. You know what? I like bigger cars. I like having some mass voting on my side in a crash -- and I like a car that feels "hefty" when you're flinging it around corners. It wouldn't bother me a whit if the new Camaro is as heavy as the 2004 GTO! As long as it has the horses to hustle with!

I'm not here to prove myself right, nor to get the last word. I just challenge opinions when I see conflicting data or facts. I enjoyed this discussion, seems a shame for it to be over. Peace. Out.

 

IF YOU ARE A GM DECISION MAKER READING THIS,AND YOU ARE CONFUSED, LET ME CLARIFY:

Some basic things we want in a new Camaro........

1) Modern Chassis

2) Modern Ergonomics

3) Modern Proportions.....ie, smaller than an SUV

4) High Quality

5) Gorgeous Styling (...also wheels that are not ugly)

6) Chevy Price (Happy, Z28Wilson)

7) AND A Z/28 BEFITTING THE NAME!

......call me with any questions.

 

Well, I've been reading thru this thread and got to the point where I said 'enough' and skipped thru the last couple of pages.

While I believe some of you have some of this right, I believe a lot of you (and I know this is gonna sound like a flame) are off base.

Did GM spend enough on the Camaro to keep us all happy? Hell no.

But does it occur to some of you that we live in a different world today than we did back in the "good ole days" of 1967-1972?"

When the original Z28 was engineered and built, the U.S. Government was so concerned about the size of GM and the fact that it could be a monopoly that they threatened to spin Chevrolet off as a separate company. (should they have, I don't know...maybe so...but they didn't and NO ONE is smart enough today to know the answer.......)

Additionally, there were virtually no federal emissions standards nor was there a thing called CAFE. Honda built motorcyles. Nissan was Datsun. And there was no Mitsubishi, Hyundai, or many other manufacturers doing business in the United States.

My point is this: We could do all kinds of things back then because there were very few regulations.....virtually no lawsuits (you wouldn't believe most of the frivilous lawsuits we get served with every day!) --- and The auto industry was able to do a lot more with a lot less money......and like it or not, this is a business. Get used to it. NO ONE in the 60s or 70s (or 80s and early 90s for that matter) could have forseen the explosive growth of trucks and sport utility vehicles......no one. And friends, if you believe that the sport utility vehicle explosion was NOT fueled by customer demand, you are very sadly mistaken.......and it cost GM dearly ...and I do mean DEARLY that it took us so long to switch more production over to SUVs..................bottom line is this: smaller piece of the pie with limited resources for a much wider range of cars and trucks.............think about it....NO, REALLY.....THINK about it! The consumer today has a mind boggling choice of vehicles to drive versus twenty -- or even ten years ago.

Now...to the 4th gen Z28.

--Let's just go beat the hell outta those people at GM that decided to make the 4th Gen Z28 look like the V6!!!!!!!!!

---FORGET THE FACT THAT THIS DECISION WAS A LONG AGONIZING ONE AND THAT THE VOICE OF THE CUSTOMER WON OUT!!!

You see, Chevrolet did a special "California Only" Camaro V6 in the late 80s.....took a V6 and made it look much more like a Z28...and guess what.........sold like hotcakes so much so that the car was released nationwide as the Camaro RS the next year. And when the 4th gen was in development, the voice of the customer said that we needed to have a V6 that looked like the Z28......because many wanted the killer look but could not afford the insurance of a V8.

You see, the problem that some of you seem to forget is that we DO listen to the customer. The problem is that our customers are pretty enthusiastic and emphatic......but they don't agree with each other. Let me assure you that decisions on wheels, interior trims, and styling treatment are always reviewed with a group of owners........................

You know, the problem is that it is hard--- no -- make that impossible--- to discuss the past and the present and hit all the highlights on a website.

Z284ever--- you frustrate me because while I know your heart is in the right place (or at least I think it is) you seem, in my opinion to make statements that on the surface seem to have merit, but when digging deeper, they seem to run out of steam. You have told me that you spend time with the Illinois Camaro Club, but I cannot seem to EVER get you to a Camaro show that is regional or national -- and in fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone that has actually met you in person! .......and perhaps if you met people in person......perhaps you would have a better understanding of why your statement a few months back to the effect that .........owning a 4th gen is an embarrassment.........is just plain ridiculous. (not to mention that you may have some really P****D off Camaro and Firebird owners to contend with. Furthermore, perhaps you would have a better understanding that while Camaro enthusiasts love their Camaros...they do not generally agree on what the best Camaro is or could be. -- And......if perhaps you showed up, you and I could sit down for one hour and perhaps I could give you a perspective that you do not have..........................and please.....like it or not, GM does NOT owe you an explanation of what we are doing in the future. Just as you would NEVER let me look in your office records, we do not allow you to peek into our future product plans. There are many reasons for this....some that you, be assured, have not even thought of. (because you are not in the automotive industry) And your comment about GM's stock price...have you looked at Ford or Chrysler lately?????

Like it or not:

>the Z28 was the ultimate Camaro from 1977 until 1996 when the SLP SS entered the market.

>The SS was meant to be -- FROM DAY ONE -- the ultimate in terms of cubic inches AND horsepower AND road handling capability. -- The fathers of the original Camaro decided that. Not me. Not you. (Note the ANDs........the Z28 of the first gen did have more horsepower than the SS in the real world...but it did not have the ultimate in cubic inches.) I know you have accused me of rewriting history, but you are wrong...I simply declared what McPherson, Lund, Estes, etc said about the SS and the Camaro -- the guys that created the Camaro.

One more thought -- it seems that many feel that the car became overpriced.....perhaps so. But I would remind you that we had to put a substantial rebate on the base $18,000 car in order to sell it, yet until the 2001 model year, we did not have to put a rebate on the $30K plus SS model where we could not keep up with demand most of the time....................we eventually did put a rebate on it because GM made a committment to the President of the United States that we would do what he asked: we made a committment to get the economy moving...by putting Zero percent financing across the entire lineup...including Corvette and Camaro SS -- cars that were selling without rebates. (go read a back issue of the Wall Street Journal --look for the article about 'How GM Saved the U.S. Economy)

In closing.....I have chosen to ignore most of the attacks on GM on this board because I believe that most attacks are based on ignorance of the REAL facts taken in context of the larger picture. I have chosen to ignore most of the attacks some of you make on each other. But I guess that it is after 3:00 am and reading this just kinda set me off.

If I have offended some of you, sorry.......but I ask you to look at the bigger picture. And I guess I'm a frustrated teacher....because I try to educate to the realities and it doesn't seem to get through.

 

Red,

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to post that much information... (that had to take a while! )

I have one comment on the Z28 looking like a V6 subject...

Having owned an 89 RS and a 99 Z28, I think I have a good perspective on this:

I think the 3rd Gen California Camaro (I thought that was the 87 RS, which went Nation Wide in 88 as "Camaro" with the (silver) Z28 ground effects, then took the RS name nation wide in 89 (with the monochromatic paint scheme??) Anyway, I think people buying the RS back then viewed it as "getting the Z28 look for the lower price" because the Z28 look had been established from 82-on with the 3rd Gen.... the V6 never had the ground effects prior to that. BUT, Z28/IROC-Z still had the hood and (until 91) taillights, and (after 91) rear wing differences.

BUT, with the 4th Gen, the V6 looked like the Z28 from the beginning.... making feel like the Z28 looked like a V6 rather than the other way around....

I could be wrong, but that is kind of the way I saw it... then when SS came out, it made than even more true, because the SS was 'dressed up' and the Z28 still looked like the V6...

In conclusion, this did NOT stop me from buying my new 99 Z28... but I always had that view of the situation... just wanted to throw that out there and see if you have any feelings on that point of view?

 

Hello there RedPlanet! I see I've gotten your attention. You have said so much for me to respond to. YOU KNOW my heart is in the right place, as does everyone else who knows me. From the first time my young eyes gazed upon a new '67 Camaro ( a Marina Blue RS with black vinyl top), in the fall of '66 ,from the back seat of my father's car, I have been a Camaro man.

I wish I had the time to attend some national events...but sorry, I just don't have that kind of time right now...hopefully, I will in the future. You are more than invited to attend some of our local events, however. And believe me Red, you've met ALOT of people that know me...I've got an autographed poster from you, to me, to prove it.

I don't really remember ever saying the 4th gen was embarassing, but I do have my well documented issues with it. Furthermore, I would never degrade an enthusiast's car....I don't think that is very polite.

But forums like this are made for frank talk...rather than politeness....and yes Red, just like you I have an opinion.

Quote:

..........................and please.....like it or not, GM does NOT owe you an explanation of what we are doing in the future. Just as you would NEVER let me look in your office records, we do not allow you to peek into our future product plans. There are many reasons for this....some that you, be assured, have not even thought of. (because you are not in the automotive industry) And your comment about GM's stock price...have you looked at Ford or Chrysler lately?????

I don't need to see the grisly under belly of GM...I just need to know if my car is on the way. I'm not blaming you personally BTW. And you're right..I wouldn't let just anyone peruse my office records....but I'd be more than happy to let everyone know that I am open for business.

Is Chevy Camaro open for business? Is there a Grand Re-Opening planned?

Quote:

Like it or not:

>the Z28 was the ultimate Camaro from 1977 until 1996 when the SLP SS entered the market.

>The SS was meant to be -- FROM DAY ONE -- the ultimate in terms of cubic inches AND horsepower AND road handling capability. -- The fathers of the original Camaro decided that. Not me. Not you. (Note the ANDs........the Z28 of the first gen did have more horsepower than the SS in the real world...but it did not have the ultimate in cubic inches.) I know you have accused me of rewriting history, but you are wrong...I simply declared what McPherson, Lund, Estes, etc said about the SS and the Camaro -- the guys that created the Camaro.

Red, we've gone over this a million times...I think you know where I stand on this. BTW, I have never fully understood why you don't completely revel in our enthusiasm for the Z/28 ...on the contrary,it seems to be a thorn in your side.

Please RP....don't get mad at me and I won't get mad at you. That serves no purpose. I think...from our conversations, that we agree on 95% of things, ( but oh man that last 5%!).

....and remember...you have an open invitation to attend one of the fine events sponsored by the Illinois Camaro Club.

 

Thanks for getting in on this RP. You posting is always a good thing. But I'm gonna try to get through to you here and I hope you can understand this enthusiast to enthusiast. I have definetly appreciated your work at times and appreciate you taking time to talk with us here and even answer our E-Mails as you have done for me before. I would hope by now you know I am a real enthusiast, especially being the known "Camaro Dude" in my area. Here we go.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Red Planet
Did GM spend enough on the Camaro to keep us all happy? Hell no. But does it occur to some of you that we live in a different world today than we did back in the "good ole days" of 1967-1972?" When the original Z28 was engineered and built, the U.S. Government was so concerned about the size of GM and the fact that it could be a monopoly that they threatened to spin Chevrolet off as a separate company. (should they have, I don't know...maybe so...but they didn't and NO ONE is smart enough today to know the answer.......)

Additionally, there were virtually no federal emissions standards nor was there a thing called CAFE. Honda built motorcyles. Nissan was Datsun. And there was no Mitsubishi, Hyundai, or many other manufacturers doing business in the United States.

My point is this: We could do all kinds of things back then because there were very few regulations.....virtually no lawsuits (you wouldn't believe most of the frivilous lawsuits we get served with every day!) --- and The auto industry was able to do a lot more with a lot less money......and like it or not, this is a business. Get used to it. NO ONE in the 60s or 70s (or 80s and early 90s for that matter) could have forseen the explosive growth of trucks and sport utility vehicles......no one. And friends, if you believe that the sport utility vehicle explosion was NOT fueled by customer demand, you are very sadly mistaken.......and it cost GM dearly ...and I do mean DEARLY that it took us so long to switch more production over to SUVs..................bottom line is this: smaller piece of the pie with limited resources for a much wider range of cars and trucks.............think about it....NO, REALLY.....THINK about it! The consumer today has a mind boggling choice of vehicles to drive versus twenty -- or even ten years ago.

I seriously hope they are with you before a 5th Gen is built so we all don't have to deal with the same issues again. Maybe if there is no Firebird they will allow more?? There might be more choice today but people know what they want and there are alot more than you might think out there that want a new cool Camaro to drive around in, but alot of them can't afford them, which is a problem. There is a market for these cars and you and GM know it, just like there is and always will be a market for B-Bodies and still there is nothing. If some1 sees a Camaro go by or gets a ride in 1 and likes it, they're usually gonna want to buy it, not go look at other cars. That was a car they were interested in, not some other, so really the choices today to me are almost not a factor. But the car needs to be priced for the younger market to be able to buy. There are lots of import/ricer owners that would like so much to drive a real car like an F-Body, especially the top model, but not for its price if you know what I mean??


Now...to the 4th gen Z28.

--Let's just go beat the hell outta those people at GM that decided to make the 4th Gen Z28 look like the V6!!!!!!!!!

We are organizing that plan as you speak. It seems that many want to now after we've had a car like this.

---FORGET THE FACT THAT THIS DECISION WAS A LONG AGONIZING ONE AND THAT THE VOICE OF THE CUSTOMER WON OUT!!!

You see, Chevrolet did a special "California Only" Camaro V6 in the late 80s.....took a V6 and made it look much more like a Z28...and guess what.........sold like hotcakes so much so that the car was released nationwide as the Camaro RS the next year. And when the 4th gen was in development, the voice of the customer said that we needed to have a V6 that looked like the Z28......because many wanted the killer look but could not afford the insurance of a V8.

RP, read DXed's post. The Third Gen RS looked like a regular Z28 alot, but there was no regular Z28 in 89 that it had to co-exist with in the car line, and it still did not look EXACTLY like a Z28. I happen to own 1 of these very cars you are speaking of. (Still looking for an IROC-Z ) All Third Gens are distinguishable. You can easily tell apart an 85-87 Z28, 88 Sport Coupe, and ANY IROC-Z28 or 91-92 Z28 from an RS. With the 4th Gen's you JUST can't do that. Thats where it went wrong. They look exactly that same, a Z28 and a base model, imagine that. Its kinda ridiculous RP. It was never that way before and shouldn't have been then. With the next base model, make it look good in its own way and different from the others, no need to make it look like the top models, let it be cool, just not as cool as the top cars.

You see, the problem that some of you seem to forget is that we DO listen to the customer. The problem is that our customers are pretty enthusiastic and emphatic......but they don't agree with each other. Let me assure you that decisions on wheels, interior trims, and styling treatment are always reviewed with a group of owners

Whoever this "group of owners" are, I hope they are not used as consultants to the 5th Gen. And lets hope their age is the target age group this time.

You know, the problem is that it is hard--- no -- make that impossible--- to discuss the past and the present and hit all the highlights on a website.

RP, this is a place where I can say you are incredibly wrong without question. You seem to have this thing about "well its just people talking on the internet" and you want to talk to people in person about these things. Take my word for it, the internet is exactly where you wanna talk about it and where the people are you should listen to the most and I will explain why.

When you meet people, they want to be your friend and they are gonna almost always tell you what you want to hear, not wanting to get into an arguement or difference in opinion with Mr.S.S. right there in person. And I heard that you are a pretty cool/nice person to talk with. Who's gonna want to start something with you and maybe **** off the Brand Manager of their favorite car at a show or something?? Places like this board is where people let out their real feelings and they can do it comfortably, and we have all the time we want to say whatever, not just a few minutes. You are also able to reach owners this way that maybe can't go to shows or don't want to. Either way, in person, people are going to be different to you, here we can say whatever almost as if you were another owner. This is where you can hear what your buyers are really saying from all over the place.

*This is PART 1, it won't let me post it all.*

 

PART 2

Z284ever--- you frustrate me because while I know your heart is in the right place (or at least I think it is) you seem, in my opinion to make statements that on the surface seem to have merit, but when digging deeper, they seem to run out of steam. You have told me that you spend time with the Illinois Camaro Club, but I cannot seem to EVER get you to a Camaro show that is regional or national -- and in fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone that has actually met you in person! .......and perhaps if you met people in person......perhaps you would have a better understanding of why your statement a few months back to the effect that .........owning a 4th gen is an embarrassment.........is just plain ridiculous. (not to mention that you may have some really P****D off Camaro and Firebird owners to contend with. Furthermore, perhaps you would have a better understanding that while Camaro enthusiasts love their Camaros...they do not generally agree on what the best Camaro is or could be. -- And......if perhaps you showed up, you and I could sit down for one hour and perhaps I could give you a perspective that you do not have

Why does he have to come to a show when he can convey his thoughts here with you and other enthusiasts that might or might not share the same opinion?? And I think his statement was more like owning a Z28 is an embarrassment or something about the looks, and I and others agree with him. If he was to talk to you or if you were to talk to me in person, I guarantee we'd still be for the Z28 and a better, disctintive, top model approach no matter how much you tried to convince, it ain't happening, especially not with enthusiasts that know the cars besides owning them.


and please.....like it or not, GM does NOT owe you an explanation of what we are doing in the future. Just as you would NEVER let me look in your office records, we do not allow you to peek into our future product plans. There are many reasons for this....some that you, be assured, have not even thought of. (because you are not in the automotive industry)

This is another statement that is wrong to me. I ask you, who are the people that bought and supported the Camaro and kept it here for 35 years???? To leave all of those people and its enthusiasts just wondering and not knowing ANYTHING at all isn't right and its not good for business either. Its frustrating, and we should be more frustrated than any other right now because the hiatus is an embarrassment. There are many p****d off at this and GM right now because of this hiatus BS and no information. IF there is a reason you guys CANNOT say anything, then of course there is no choice, but I would almost bet its being greatly exaggerated unless there is something like that Contract keeping you guys from saying anything.

Like it or not:

>the Z28 was the ultimate Camaro from 1977 until 1996 when the SLP SS entered the market.

>The SS was meant to be -- FROM DAY ONE -- the ultimate in terms of cubic inches AND horsepower AND road handling capability. -- The fathers of the original Camaro decided that. Not me. Not you. (Note the ANDs........the Z28 of the first gen did have more horsepower than the SS in the real world...but it did not have the ultimate in cubic inches.) I know you have accused me of rewriting history, but you are wrong...I simply declared what McPherson, Lund, Estes, etc said about the SS and the Camaro -- the guys that created the Camaro.

Like it or not, we are telling you, as 90% of this post and on this board have agreed with and most enthusiasts at car shows, cruise nights, or just regular friends have agreed with me, that we want the Z28 to be either the TOP Camaro again or a separate Special Performance Option that has its own advantages over the rest of the lineup. NEVER again is the Z28 to be an unappealing MID-model. THATS rewriting history. If that is done again in a 5th Gen I will stand outside the dealers everyday and persuade people to not buy those Camaro's myself because its just wrong. Speaking of the 1st Gen, a car that has more power seems like the top model to me, and I don't even know how you can say the SS handled or braked better!! It might have had a bigger engine, but if its slower, doesn't handle and brake as good, what good is it?? We know the Z28 did those things better and it got upgrades over the SS. It looked better, and became the most popular Camaro ever. Do you think we don't know people who have either owned or driven both or aren't those people ourselves?? Is the SS the car that won all the Championships and has the best SCCA racing record?? If you count the 1st Gen Z28 as top model, the Z28 was the real Ultimate Camaro for 26 of those 35 years, if not take away 6 if you wanna say SS was 67-72. Regardless, the Z28 in some form was still the top Camaro for more years and is the most recognized Camaro model of all time. The people who are gonna be in the age group to buy a 5th Gen know Z28, as does ANY1 that knows the Camaro. The SLP enhanced Z28, also known as the SS, would have been fine if it didn't go and completely change the model name and disregard the Z28 and what it meant. And why deal with SLP anyway instead of doing it yourselves?? SLP is a company that alot don't even like because of their customer service and way overpriced products.

Its stupid that GM feels every car should have the same name. "Lets just take away all the names, especially the racy 1's and call them Super Sport, even when theres nothing Super Sporty about them!!" Let the 2 specialty cars be different, I mean is the C6 Z06 gonna have an SS upgrade option LOL?? Or better yet, lets just take away the Z06 altogether and rename it SS, yeah thats it!!

One more thought -- it seems that many feel that the car became overpriced.....perhaps so. But I would remind you that we had to put a substantial rebate on the base $18,000 car in order to sell it, yet until the 2001 model year, we did not have to put a rebate on the $30K plus SS model where we could not keep up with demand most of the time....................we eventually did put a rebate on it because GM made a committment to the President of the United States that we would do what he asked: we made a committment to get the economy moving...by putting Zero percent financing across the entire lineup...including Corvette and Camaro SS -- cars that were selling without rebates. (go read a back issue of the Wall Street Journal --look for the article about 'How GM Saved the U.S. Economy)

Thats cool and all, but the car was still too much money no matter which way you look at it.

If I have offended some of you, sorry.......but I ask you to look at the bigger picture. And I guess I'm a frustrated teacher....because I try to educate to the realities and it doesn't seem to get through.

Sometimes I think RP that we are not getting through to you. Everytime you post you take the same stance on things we feel you should consider and listen to. If you are gonna be that way about something we care so much about, then we are gonna have another 4th Gen, and if we have another Gen that flops, do you really think GM will get behind another attempt at a Camaro???? Look at the 1st 3 Gens and look at the things that made them successfull. Leave the 4th Gen out of the picture, it was a formula that didn't work, and all of us, including the owners of those cars, do NOT want to see another hiatus again, I CAN assure you of that. I understand how you might feel like you're on the defensive, but think of it this way. If you built a restaurant that had nothing people really wanted, and the prices were pretty high for this stuff no1 wanted, would people want to eat there?? Eventually, it would go out of business. That sounds like a familiar situation doesn't it?? Then after going out of business and wanting to open another in a few years, would you try to do it all over again practically the same way?? I don't think so.