Thanks......

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I guess though, we are essentially of two different phiilosophies about GM. Yours, stuck in the past, looking around in disillusionment and anger at mistakes already made and thus now unchangeable for all time. Mine, hopeful of the future and looking for ways to help GM find the path to a new and even more successful Camaro. It's not anti-GM to say they could have built it better. But it is anti-GM to say some of the other things... and while you have every right, I disagree with them.

It is not being "stuck in the past" to attempt to drag GM kicking and screaming into the future....quite the opposite.

I guess I've been around long enough (45+ years) and talked to enough people on the inside to know that you are fighting a corporate culture that looks at stockholders and lawyers first and car designers and engineers somewhere further down the food chain......and as long as people are happy campers they will continue down the path of building cars just good enough. Withness the Cavalier....the imports have kicked GM's @$$ for waaaay too many years and we still don't have a replacement. I think you also need to realize that I am not condeming the people involved with the Camaro...the one's I know are some of the most dedicated people in big business that I've ever met....but this is the kind of corporate culture that keeps them from doing better. So I definately am not anti-GM, but anti-greed. Of course I know they are in the business to make money, but the car companies that build better cars also make money. GM is loosing passenger car market share directly because of this culture that looks at short-sighted, short-term profit and not long term survival...(BTW, this is what my friends on the "inside" tell me and not just conjecture)...you'll notice that GM isn't exactly rolling in the dough these days......

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I hold all magazine reviews at arms length anymore. ....... Maybe that's part of your situation... in all these interviews with the media, you're becoming infected with their cynicism and bias. You see, it's fashionable to be "worldly" and put down American cars... even though the quality gap now is negligible and the long-term reliability gap is attenuating monotonically to zero as well.

Like it or not, the peole who write the magazines do shape public opinion and are much more intimately involved and exposed to all makes and models of cars than we can possibly be. Heck, I think they're idiots too......but I also think 99% of the buying public are morons....How many times have people said to you.."I thought they quit making those cars years ago"....happens to me with regularity. Or how about the timeless comment "Oh Camaros are horrible in the snow, I wouldn't want one of those". I personally know of numerous dealers here in Indiana that will flat tell you "I don't care if I ever sell another Camaro" (ever tried getting dealers to sponsor a Camaro event? I have, most just blow you off). Talk on most import (read young people buying rice) boards and they all use the "mullet wearing, redneck" label when refering to f-bodies....of course I consider the source, but this is the impression they get from everything they read and see....you have to keep new people coming into showrooms and buying Camaros to be able to to continue building them (but it's too late for that thought anyway)....so like it or not (and I'm on your side here) magazines & TV do heavily influence the buying public.

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So "some even thought it was a great value". How about naming a car with more performance per dollar than the Z28 available today? Can't can you?

News flash The F-body is not available any longer. Other than a few straglers left over, you can't exactly go in and order a new one.......

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......I know several older guys with Camaro's or Firebirds... does that make them "boy racers"?

I hope not! I'm old!! But ask anybody walking down the sidewalk what thier impression of a Camaro is.....usually it's not exactly that flattering.

My use of the term "boy racer" was not meant to be taken literally.....but 90% of the un-informed public sees our cars as loud exhaust, fat tired, street racing malcontents. Do I think that is fair? Of course not......but ask around to some of your non-car friends and you'll see. (disclaimer....of course there are exceptions, but I'm refering to the majority of the idiots out there)

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You see... that is the key. It does not have an LS1! The 350Z is a pretty nice car... but here's some other things it doesn't have like the FBody does...

You'll notice I used the word IF it had an LS1.

We should probably debate this elsewhere as we've already high-jacked Charlie's thread long enough........but I can also list a lot of things I'd kill for the next Camaro (if we ever get one) to have that the 350Z does have....

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Surely you have heard of 'self-fulfilling prophesies'. I believe that a lot of carping and moaning by people posting herein about how many things are/were wrong with the Camaro could have an effect on it coming back. I think we should spend a little more time here saying what we do like about these cars, instead of being negative. If we tell GM "don't like this, didn't like that" it is not as informative as "THIS, I like!" "That, I want and need!".

Accept less and that's exactly what you'll get......you'll never get a great car (notice I still think the 4th gen is a good car) by blowing smoke up GM's bum....the bean-counters will just laugh all the way to the stock-holder's meeting with your hard earned cash....while the rest of the world looks further and further back at them.

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I disagree that the Camaro name has too much baggage to return. I believe that for most people it means "performance at a value price" and "stylish 2+2". There will always be a small fraction of consumers who react negatively to a name. Let them buy Celicas.

I'll repeat...unless you don't travel much.....it's not a "small fraction".......but a very large one.....a small fraction would not have turned elsewhere enough times to have GM decide to kill the car. I don't like it either, but it's a fact.

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I disagree with this completely. You think the Camaro failed? Why? Because it's not in production anymore? If so here are some other 'failures' for you:

Dodge Charger Daytona
Torino GT 428 CobraJet
Hemi 'Cuda

All supreme performers, all loved still today by their owners, all a resounding success in my book. Oh wait - forgot one:

Z/28 Camaro

Uuuuuuhhhh......those cars are extinct too. Successful??!! Hardly....GREAT cars for their time, sure...but time & the rest of the world passed them by too.......

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The Camaro was, is, and will be a world-class car when it returns.

On this point....I'll hope you're right! But I'm still not holding my breath..........

 

The thing we're forgetting is that Camaro's mission was always affordable performance. Maybe the better question is, can the next Camaro be quote "world class" while still maintaining some level of "Chevy price" as Scott always says? The 350Z has all of these great things Doug listed like huge brake packages, lightweight aluminum suspension pieces and so forth. It has also pushed the pricetag into the mid 30's, not where the Z28 used to be. Can Chevy find that balance between what we want to see, i.e. awesome performance with modern accessories and pieces, not to mention solid build quality, while keeping the car one of the world's top performance bargains.

 

...you've hit the nail on the head here.

I too have championed the "Chevy Priced" banner and mid $30k to over $40k for a fully optioned WS6 convertible f-bodies are un-reachable for the traditional f-body buyer....much less enticing new buyers to a car that by most accounts is not year-round practical for most people.

However......by the time they might return, the mid$30k price range might be as affordable as today's mid $20k range.......

BTW, I think the 350Z actually base prices in the high $20k's and a fully optioned track model is in the mid $30k's.

The longer GM waits to bring it back the higher the bar will be for performance and quality standards.....and the price will reflect it.

 

Doug H - if you chose the Cavalier to support ridiculing GM, you chose the wrong car...

http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosins...a01-589344.htm

Cavalier sales are up 16% this year, while the Ford Focus is down 7%, Toyota Corolla down 21% and the Civic is down 6%.


I haven't been around as long as you, only 43 years... and I don't have a bunch of "insiders" giving me tips. Imagine that... a corporation putting shareholders first! Building cars 'just good enough' to satisfy their customers! Shame on them. GM may be loosing passengar car market share (Where exactly?)... but its not with the Cavalier, not with the Impala and not with the Monte Carlo, all successes in their segments. GM not rolling in the dough? Then how did they manage to eke out more profit than the other domestics this year? It might surprise you a little... some of it is with rapidly improving quality. You see, in manufacturing there is this concept of the "cost of quality". Making and delivering high quality actually SAVES cost, both in the plant and in warranty claims. GM is already reaping these benefits from its quality focus, and from its transition to a manufacturing system much like that of Toyota.

Magazine writers do have an effect on opinion... but it is much less concentrated nowadays thanks to the Internet and its multitude of info sources (even this site for example!). I do not share your opinion about consumers, at least Camaro intenders. Sporty and performance car enthusiasts are more knowledgeable than other car buyers. Camry and Civic buyers are unlikely to switch to a 5gen Camaro IMHO. Let them continue in their blissful ignorance. Sport import enthusiasts are also unlikely to jump to a 5gen Camaro... the Camaro is not their niche and that's fine with me. Maybe they will go for a Cavalier with a power adder though

Camaro no longer available? If you mean they cannot be ordered, you are correct. But I just checked www.gmbuypower.com and found 20 units on lots in metro Detroit alone. I wouldn't exactly call that 'stragglers', that's a significant number of new cars and I imagine it's true in other major US cities too.

This stuff about "boy racers". Has it occurred to you that many buyers LIKE this image? Personally, I get a kick out of pulling up to a light beside a sport import, watching the driver look the other way, seeing the raw fear in their eyes I like the image my car has. It's a street fighter, in your face, hanging it all out for the world to see. Eat my hot exhaust, Honda!

I don't blindly embrace all of GM's cars. I don't buy what is not a good value... for example I don't think the Grand Prix GT is a good value despite its great shape. The GTP on the other hand, is a good value and so is the Z28. How much better a value would a Z28 be if it was instead dressed up with some hi-po brakes and a Z/28 badge? Not much... the essence of the car is its styling, pricing, layout and drivetrain and that is what made it the great performance value it is.

So the original Z/28 was not a success? Then why bring it back? This seems like a strange position for someone who "champions the slash" but I'm going to cut you some slack since I was kind of advocating it myself in my post about Daytona Chargers and Z/28's. It's fine with me if the 5gen Camaro has a Z/28 variant (and I agree that if they do, it should be a scorcher)... but it's also fine with me if they have an IROC-Z 5gen

I'm amazed you don't think the Daytona Charger, the Mach I Mustang (coming BACK you know) and the original Z/28 were successes. They were devastating competitors in their day; spawned untold reams of racing folklore; and today are prized collectibles with insane street values, loved and cherished by their proud owners. What on Earth more do you want?

 

Boy...I can't even leave the house. Looks like you guys have been busy here, today.

If the Z/28 had that plus a bunch of other stuff...it may not be a better value...but it sure would be more Z/28 like!

And really, I don't see the role of the Z/28 as being the low end value leader either.

Sure, I'd like great bang for my buck....but I don't know how desirable or useful it is for Z/28 to become (or after the 4th gen..to remain) the bargain basement model.

After all, Z/28 hunts for prey more elite than Neon SRT.

 

Of coarse they were...V8 camaro=Z/28 in GM's eyes....Yet again in GM's eyes the camaro needed to die...Go figure

~Mike

 

I think that would be an interesting discussion. I like the 350Z...but I really like the G35 Coupe.

Drop an LS1 in either one and squint real hard....maybe you can see the next Camaro.

 

The G35 coupe is close to Camaro's niche... yet misses it by a significant margin IMHO. First off, it won't be getting a torquey V8 any time in our lifetimes. Second, it's not a muscle car... just doesn't have the character. Imagine how silly one would look with drag radials on the back. I agree though, that might be the general shape of the next Camaro. I'm kind of hoping for a third door or doorlet on the next Camaro too though... like on the Saturn SC or maybe even two little doors like on the RX8 or the Rageous concept from a few years back.

 

No doorlets, please, two doors only on a Camaro. I agree that the G35 Coupe is not a muscle car in the classical sense...but it sure does deliver the goods...performance wise.

Of course, if a future Camaro would share some of the G35s attributes...overall size, proportions, modern chassis, good brakes, etc., Z/28 versions would carry a lusty, muscular V8.

 

...off this dead horse....but one last comment.....

There are very few people at Chevy that do not think the Cavalier is waaay beyond needing to be replaced...short of the accountants that is. It sells because it's cheap and not a bad value, but it hardly wins in any serious competition to other brands.

At least with Lutz there's hope....witness the Ecotec program.

GM has eeking out a profit larger than the competition is more to do with one of the most agressive marketting programs in recent memory.....The low to no finance charge, no down payment, no payments for months...has been a boon to GM recovering market share....but the effects of which are not always positive. Just as in Charlie's stock loosing value, many analysts also point to extreme depreciation in initial value and the near collapse of the used car values as something that may come back to haunt GM as these new car buyers find themselves in a severe non-equity position in a few years when GM hopes they will want to replace these cars. I guess we'll see.

Finally, I measure success by a car's longetivity....including the ability to stay at the forefront of their class....while I truly revere the cars you mentioned....they were all (except the Z/28) small blips on the scale of automotive history.

You ask "what more could you want?" I say...I want a car that does more than "look good with a set of drag radials"......I am a road racer....one of the main reasons I want the Z/28 to return to it's roots of being a no compromise road racer. I want a car that doesn't get it's lunch handed to it by better designed, lighter, better handling cars on the road course......some even without a "rumbling V8".

I want a car that doesn't weigh in at over 3,600#...even a Z06 is nearer the 350Z's weight at somewhere in the 3,200# range.....I want a car that doesn't have the length of a minivan, but only holds two adults and two very short passengers...I want a car that doesn't hang out over the front wheel centerline by nearly four feet! I want a car without a hump, football field sized dash, hatch that dumps a gallon of water in the rear seat when opened after being wet, a useable trunk, doors that are still too long and heavy and a solid rear axle, to mention a few things.

Is that too much to ask?

 

Not too much to ask for at all.

 

Nope not IMO, they've done it before. They used to give the public what they wanted. The 1st Gen Z28's were the most winning SCCA cars in their class with a still unbeatable record. They performed great in all ways and also came with a decieving low ci. engine that managed to take out much bigger engines. They sold better year by year and Z28 sales kept getting higher. (IMO the 1st Gen should have been a few more years than it was) The 2nd Gen I can't really say much about because they were mostly really slow and had little power, but handling improved and the looks of the later years seemed to appeal to people. The early 2nds definetly had performance though before emissions and things would make having a performance car with performance a difficult thing. The Third Gen Z28's and IROC-Z's out handled practically everything in the U.S. throughout the 80's and early 90's, even the Corvette and Porche at times and they still out handle many cars now, including the 4ths. Their ride quality isn't as good though as Thirds are more no compromise. I mean .92 G's stock right from the factory is really something even today, but back then it was incredible. The L98's low-mid RPM 330-345 ft. lbs. of torque was something to talk about and made driving on the street great and fun with an aggressive sound. Reviews said things like "you have to drive 1 to believe it," or "go and buy 1 of these cars" after some testing and really liking the looks and all the attributes. I'd like to see people and magazines liking Camaros in a way like that again, I'd like them to be 1 of the new cars to buy again. I don't see why they can't make the Camaro have some incredible better than most features again that stand out and get noticed making people want to buy them like crazy. Yes the LT1 and LS1 offered nice power and were rated as really good engines also, but you have to have an entire winning combination for a car to be a success. The other Gens did and as many say, the 4ths didn't have this formula. GM seemed to refuse to make a car the public really wanted. The 4th Gens' sales, reviews, low appeal, and hiatus, were an embarrassment to the F-Body and what it had stood for all these years, while the M*****g, a car that still didn't perform as good as the F-Body in any way, sold like double of its sales combined and stayed in production after losing to it years before. And we know that the F-Body was a better car than the M*****g since they were introduced.

A 5th Gen Z28 that would be Z06-like would be a great top model. (it needs an Auto option and AC to be a real seller though) They need to look back at the Camaro's history and see the things that made it successfull throughout the years and bring some of those things back and combine them with a certain amount of new while actually caring and focusing on the car wanting it to be a success and something great. That is how the car will be right and sell like it did and should again.

 

Man that was alot of reading. First let me say I am older than dirt and have been around muscle cars since the 60's. I have worked on, raced, built sold and serviced cars since 1970. I have worked for many different car companys from Porsche to AC Cobra To GM and many more in between. I am just letting you know I have been around.
First I would like to say like it or not Doug Harden makes alot of good points. In 1998 GM already knew they were going to kill the F/body. I had left Porsche and went to GM and was talking with a one of the vice presidents. Because of my back round with the import market he wanted to know how GM cars compared with the *** car lines I had worked with. I told him I would tell him if he told me what was going to happen with the F/bodys. I talked for over a hour about the differences between the cars. I found he didn't want to hear what I had to say. All he cared about was profit. I tried in vain to get him to understand the difference in the import market. When it came time to talk about the F/body all he would say is there is no profit in it and they (being GM) were in business to make money. I advised him that they were opening up the market to Ford yet again. Just as they had done with the GN market and Impala. I said that is why you are loossing all your fleet sales ( taxi, police dept ect). He said there was not enough profit in it. This tells you they think in numbers only..
I am not going to get into the debate about being able to tell years other than to say up to the 4th gens you could. I have owned 3 gens of F/bodys.
I can tell you first hand the 4th gen was and is the best all around fbody GM made from a performance stand point. I have worked on driven and raced them all . I still own a 3rd gen and a 4th gen. I love them both for different reasons.
There is so many good things about the Z28/IROC/SS and TA/WS6. Maybe being older and growing up with these cars I look at how improved they are to those of the late 60's and 70's.
I can tell you when working at Porsche I raced 911 there and beat them with my IROC. My IROC is no were near stock. At the same time I have about $28000.00 in my IROC from when I got it new. The Porsche cost $75000.00 to $85000.00. My point being GM can build a car to compete with the imports for alot less money.
I can say alot more but the bottom line is I want the F/boby to return. If not I guess I will keep the two I have and my next ride will be a Cobra. I never thought I would say that.

 

thats what i'm hoping for if there's a future camaro.. Moving away from "trim level" and towards "performance hardware".. Should be a car that feels more at home slicing thru the roadcourse than rounding blocks in suburbia... And make it fast lap after lap! so brakes that don't fade and power steering pumps that don't boil over at least...... and when you get it right, don't try to fluff it up...



Hhe, funny enough though, some of these traits I find endearing to my 4th gen Camaro. I wouldn't mind if these "endearing traits" disapeared in the future model.. but pesonally, thats what makes my 4th gen unique in my mind...

I actually like long heavy doors.. Sure they are impractical, but I think they are neat.. now if they only made a solid thump when they closed with the window down.....

Are 4th gen really that much of a performance slouch? I thought they were even faster than 3rd gens in all areas.....

 

Just being fast, in a straight line, isn't the most important thing. It has to be a great car all around with a great drivetrain also.

And Ja, I'm looking for your exact IROC-Z, LOL, in bright red with grey int. though.