Z28Wilson

To me, a "dyno queen" is the proverbial "1000 HP" Supra that runs 12s.

Sure, GT500 and ZL1 will both be traction-limited. But a production car running deep into the 11s on street tires isn't anything to sneeze at. Now, the fact that guys are running 11.7s or better with stock C6 Z06s, down 100+ HP compared to the GT500, leads me to the not-too-surprising conclusion that pure horsepower numbers are getting uselessly high in these cars.

HAZ-Matt

Hmmm.

This is the truth. You just can't get all that much faster on street tires by throwing more HP at these cars. Production vehicles that go faster are either a lot lighter (ZR1); have AWD (GTR); or some combination of AWD, 1000HP and a $20,000 set of street tires (Veyron).

94LightningGal

Invoice on the base 2013 GT500 is just a hair under $50K. So yes, the dealers are making good coin, and so is Ford.

BTW, many people are buying 2013's for under MSRP. Quite a few at invoice. They are allowing the dealer to keep holdback, which is still pretty substantial on these cars.

The GT500 isn't supposed to be a "value proposition" for the common man. Is it a "value proposition" for a 650hp 200+mph car............. yes. To expect Ford to build the car to where it is affordable for everyone is ridiculous.

After all, see where the higher performing Corvettes are coming in these days. They are hardly a strict dollar "value proposition" either.

As for the ZL1 now being a "ring" car............... I find that humorous also. Not too long ago, everyone was saying the only way Ford could make a fast vehicle was to supercharge it, and now see where we are. In the same vein, these two cars were always about 0-60 and 1/4 miles. Now, all of a sudden, the measure of success is "the Ring," and SCCA road racing. Like next to anyone is going to do that with these cars (as if a supercharged 3800-4200lb car is a road race car when you factor in multiple laps). Also, techno wonders were bad last year, and this year the GT500 sucks because it isn't a techno wonder. LOL

Is the ZL1 a great car............... yes. Is is slower than a GT500............. yes.

It is what it is. GM had a ceiling, and Ford didn't.

bossco

I would disagree there given the actual content of the car compared to its competitor, especially given the fact that its riding on an 8 year old chassis and lacks some of the features of that competitor (rear brakes -> a limitation due to its c-clip axles <- , rear suspension -> to beat a dead horse <-, and dampers -> which arent even ground breaking considering they were available on the fox based Thunderbirds <- )

I really dont see anything beyond maybe the valvetrain and the driveshaft that justifies the big price difference, most of the changes have been in line with the year to year evolutionary changes that have occured since the 2010 model year (hell Ford just dropped the price of its 2300 TVS blower kits by a substantial margin due to the fact that the 2300 TVS is the standard blower on the car now) and frankly thats how I see the current performance of the 2013 GT500 as evolutionary and not revolutionary. The only thing holding the prior cars back was for whatever reason, Ford used a speed limiter limiting them to 155 mph. As early as the 07-09 cars, the GT500 was capable of going 183 mph in 5th at 6250 rpm (the engine's redline).

WhiteHawk

It is funny to keep watching Ford groupies rationalize. It is only going to get better as Ford continues to withhold the ring time. Because eventually they won't be able to deny getting out-engineered by GM (because that is what this is really all about). Maybe next year they will go for 750 HP!

You guys just keep writing lost posts to convince yourself, it just keeps getting funnier and funnier, and nobody is buying it.

-Geoff

smooth3d

Man [edit] the ring time damn! You trying to call out Ford over a ring time that they can't get even if they wanted too, the ring currently shut down. The GT500 they had there last year was development mules. If there times was released, you would claim foul and say it wasn't a production car. I'm hip to your game its no win situation for you.

Just wait for a head to head test when 2013 is released. Let me ask you a question? The 2012 Gt500 are readily available why has there not been a head to head test with it? I'm waiting.

OutsiderIROC-Z

King Moose SS

I don't know what all the hub-ub is about. I'm with guy on this one (way old post). We have 2 factory cars (not aftermarket tuners), that are exceeding HP marks that many couldn't even fathom years ago, and they have warranties that are longer than our LT1 cars and LS1 cars when new (with more than 200hp+ over those engines.)

There are valid arguments that ZL1 > GT500, and there are valid arguments that GT500 > ZL1. However, they are 2 different cars built with 2 different goals. GM made the ZL1 similar to how they made the CTS-V, a lot of technology for track use. Ford on the other hand wasn't trying to make a track beast with GT500, it was trying to separate the GT500 from the BOSS 302.

WhiteHawk

It is even more fun when the Fordies get mad!

ZL1 beat the current GT500 by 6 seconds at VIR. And we all know horsepower makes cars faster at road courses! Oh wait...

-Geoff

99SilverSS

Have these cars actually squared off in real life yet?

90 Z28SS

I am in the GM camp, but I gotta say....it's as funny hearing the Camaro guys get mad. At the kintergarden internet pissing match level of conversation, their is no defense for the lack of power or its 2 ton curb weight. Yes, it is a fact the GT500 is way out engineered here as far as the chassis is concerned. But if you really wanna dig a little deeper, GM would had to of put a wet sump LS9 in the ZL1 to match the strength and hp of the Ford. Do we have wash ? I think so. Both cars have their fair share of merits and demerits, both cars have 2 totally different adgenda's, and both of them flat out rock.

When these cars get tested, I would love to see Even Smith drive both of them back to back, with slicks on both cars at englishtown

bossco

Yeah, that will be awesome to see.

Dan Baldwin

I don't think the "Fordies" (I'm not one) are too mad that they get a quicker and faster car for about the same money.

I wonder how it'll do against the 2013 model, but in any case it bears little *actual* relevance to 90% of ZL1 and GT500 buyers.

In my experience, more power has reliably made my cars faster around road courses.

In the real world, theoretical 'ring times and VIR times vs. the 2013 GT500 are not going to mean a lot when the '12 GT500 is as quick as the ZL1 in a straight line and the '13 is going to be significantly faster and quicker.
Road course track day hounds are going to be going for Boss 302 and 1LE models (at least I would) anyway. And while it's admirable that GM has (apparently) sweated the details on making this a good street/track compromise, *serious* road course track hounds aren't going to keep the stock suspension settings anyway.

Here's hoping for a significantly smaller and much MUCH lighter-weight 6th gen...

Marc 85Z28

Because Ford would be utterly embarassed. The new Boss 302 is far superior to the older GT500, which is why it was used in a comparison and NOT the 2012 GT500. It seems Ford is choosing to show up to the game a little late ready and for the fight, rather than go in early and get humiliated.

94LightningGal

Actually, the 2012 PP GT500 is faster on a road course than the Boss.

The older models, no. New one, yes.

I have a hard time believing that no magazine anywhere could find a PP GT500 to run with the ZL1. One would, instead, believe that GM gave the mags strict instructions on what they could and couldn't compare to the ZL1................ and probably where, also. It is not surprising at all, considering that the cars tested thus far, are pre production models.