OutsiderIROC-Z

Agreed.

ZZtop

That's not all what I said. I am hearing 11.7 rumors for the GT500 and that is no dyno queen. And a 4100 lb. surcharged car is not a race car by any definition. They are both great cars, but the GT500 will be faster in a straightline for sure. The rest is yet to be determined.

bossco

bull$h!t

<edit>
Also just saw the 2013 GT500 with track pack and performance pack will be 61.5 including delivery

AdioSS

I'll take 1 of each please!

SRFCTY

Instead of arguing over these two, we should be elated that these cars are being produced. They both have their pluses and minuses, but just enjoy them for what they are.

Marc 85Z28

Whaaaat? 11.7 for a 650hp car is THE VERY DEFINITION of a dyno queen. If it were 5000lbs, that number would be expected, but not under 4000lbs.

ZZtop

Seriously?

So low to mid 12's for the ZL1 at 4,100 lbs. and 580HP is not a dyno queen but 11.7 from the 650HP and 3,850 lbs. GT500 is?

11.7 on street tires is stupid fast. Sticky tires will put the car deep into the 11's for sure. MINOR bolt on modifications will be needed to hit 10's. This is pretty much a known commodity based on what the 11' and 12' GT500 have accomplished.

But hey, if that is a dyno queen in your mind then that's your decision.

99SilverSS

I'm a fan of both the GT500 and ZL1 but they are about as far from the pony car formula as possible.

bossco

Tru'dat but these aren't your bread and butter pony cars. Ford and GM really needs to maintain the value proposition with the SS and GT as well as the bottom cars.

However with the GT500 what really makes me wonder is how much they are making on the current car? Relatively equipped the GT500 is 5k more.

I've pondered this on my Mustang site and really other than the engine, carbon fiber driveshaft and Ford's higher labor and loan costs, I cant see the huge difference in price? With the possible exception of interiors, it just seems to me that the F5 is more expensive to produce? Especially when you figure the amortized costs on the S-197 should be paid or nearly paid for.

To be honest, had I the scratch the get a loaded (san the glass roof) GT500, I'd happily do so but it does seem Ford is letting the value proposition of the Mustang name go to its head.

guionM

GT500?? Just imagine how little the SRT8 LX cars are over the Hemi models.

Cars like the ZL1, GT500, and especially SRT all have very fat profit margins on them, and wouldn't exist if there wasn't. These are "aspirational cars". People aspire to buy these cars who are hardcore fans of either Camaros, Mustangs, or Challengers (at this price level, they can easily afford BMWs, Benzes, or Audis) and want the top model they can buy. They tend to be older than most buyers of these cars, tend to be higher earners, tend to have grown kids who have moved out, and more often than not, 2 other cars in the garage.

Little secrets about car building.

Labor costs being the same, there is very little difference in the costs of building 2 cars of similar size and weight and complexity. It costs the same to build a $38,000MKZ as it does a loaded $30,000 Fusion which costs only marginally more to build than the $23,000 base model. Keep in mind, these are msrp... dealers pay at least a couple grand less and manufacturers make money selling to dealers. An example of how pricing works: a base Fusion might actually cost Ford 17 grand to make, while an MKZ might cost them 20-22K (meanwhile, the even lower price Focus, outside of using less materials, is a challenge to make at sunbstantially less cost than a Fusion and needs to be sold at global volumes to be profitable).

Much the same goes for pony cars as well. While the Camaro almost certainly costs more than the Mustang to make (complex IRS, about another 50-100 pounds of steel), GM isn't making as much money selling a base Camaros at the same price as base Mustang. But add on options, and that's where profits come in. A Camaro SS or Mustang GT costs about 10 grand more in the showroom, but isn't likely to cost GM or Ford more than a an additional couple grand all other options being the same. Again, going up to the top ZL1 GT500s, a $5,000 to $10,000 investment results in another $10,000 to $20,000 profit.

One final item. Materials.

It's been estimated that the price difference between the quality interior of a Porsche and Corvette is less than $30. The difference in materials there is more an example of philosophy than it is actual costs. While Porsche is willing to spend the money because their customers expect a good interior, GM (and other car companies to be fair) look at that extra $30 savings and multiply that my the number of cars they produce and call it saving the company money. That may be substantial, but as mentioned in Bob Lutz's book is a result where department heads performance evaluations include how much money they save the companywhile going as low in quality that a customer will accept (those cheap interiors came because of years of doing this).

You may have noticed a 180 degree turn around in the level of quality in Chrysler's interiorsfrom the 200/Sebring up to the new Jeep GC. Same holds true with the interior of the current Mustang versus the '95-'09 versions. Yet, no real increase in price. The cost difference between the new interiors and the old actually comes out to less than $20 per car. Both companies mostly held the line on base model pricing.

In another thread, a member believed that shedding the Shelby name (and therfore, royalty) would result in a lower priced GT500. That notion completely false. GT500s and ZL1s are priced at the level the market will pay and GM and Ford are not intrested in producing these cars in large numbers.

The purpose of these cars are both high profit margins and to showcase what their respective engineers can do.

Well... that and the good press in car mags that sell their lower priced V8s and V6s with enthusiasts.

STOCK1SC

I love how everyone is suddenly a "ring" statistician like 99.99% of us are ever gonna take our cars over there. Most muscle car owners I talk to don't quote me ring times they brag about 0-60 and 1/4 mile times because that's what really matters to most drivers, not how fast a car can go around some German racetrack. Some people are really grasping for straws around here to make themselves feel better about their brand being seriously out powered by Ford. It's funny to see all the diversionary talk to try and make up for the fact that the ZL1 is outclassed in almost every performance category by the GT-500. Suddenly 5th gen guys are all about handling, and power is now a secondary concern for them. LOL!

guionM

I've noticed that too.

In the 1980s, the Camaro Z28 could handle circles around Mustang GTs.

The thing was Mustang GTs were quicker, and were simply more fun to drive.

It's safe to say not a single person making an issue about the ZL1's ring times will actually buy a ZL1, let alone ship one over to drive it on the Nurbring. Any encounter anyone here has with a GT500 on the street in the real world with whatever we're driving isn't going to matter if that GT500 has a track option or not.... it's going to simply smoke whatever we're driving, as well as 99% of everything else out there (especially under $90K).

Truth of the matter is if you live and breathe Camaros, the ZL1 is flawless, just like if you live and brethe Mustangs, GT500 is.

Personally, I like both cars.

I amd very concerned that a Camaro has 580hp, and downright alarmed that a Mustang is putting out 650. But I also realize that it's a miracle of modern engineering that we now have cars like this. It wasn't long ago that 400hp Dodge Vipers were considered over the top, and actual race cars couldn't make it around the track as fast as regular showroom production cars can today.

USHotRod

Its pretty amazing what the Big 3 are coming out with.

I just hope Dodge can catch up. Seems like 5 minutes ago, they were putting out the big muscle. Now they're in the dust.

We'll see what the Barracuda brings I guess.

falchulk

Its about the same power to weight ratio as a Ford GT and thats just about the times they run. Not so sure why you think thats bad.

Marc 85Z28

I didn't mention a thing about the ZL1.

Not for a 600+hp pony car it isn't. It's pathetic in fact.