Just because someone once claimed to have done something somwhere doesn't mean you can do it. Many more people come away from the dyno disappointed than happy. They did exactly what the saw on the 'net but somehow made 50, 75, or 100hp less. Sometimes, they get mad at US. "Something must be wrong with your dyno...you don't know what YOU are doing", etc. In some minds Internet > the real world. Go figure.

Rich

 

people lie plain and simple. They probly did have that, but you don't know what little tricks or what else was done. Funny how people always try to follw the pack....even tho alot of times the **** is never duplicated.

 

The easiest way is to mess with the dyno correction factors. Gee, no one would ever do that, would they? I think there a lot of very "optimistic" dynos out there. Pump gas 500rwhp (600hp) street genI/II small blocks are pretty damn rare. NOT impossible but you need big money, time, and expertise. That is all I am saying. Many are called, few are chosen. A big part of the problem is pump gas.

Take a look at this and what these guys went through to see 500hp on the engine dyno: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...ine/index.html

Here is a legitmate 600hp pump gas small block. But do you have Joe Sherman building and tuning your motor? The "cost to duplicate" is misleading, it doesn't include R&D. Remember, this was the BEST of the motors, the absolute best. This is the someone who once "did it" somewhere. Which doesn't mean you can or will (have the time, money, skill, and commitment). Notice the 80 dyno pulls (60 on a prototype and 20 on the contest motor). A few hundred hours of skilled labor at maybe $75-100/h adds up quick.

http://airflowresearch.com/articles/article094/A-P1.htm

Rich

 

I think alot of skeptics here have blown lots of money and have gotten subpar results

It's takes gobs of money to build a fast motor, kind of like Jordon Musser's home-built LT4 210cc AFR 383 SR setup 5+ years ago that put down 470ish RWHP and went high 10s @ 128+ on motor.

It does NOT take ton of money to make a 23* headed LT1 car make power. It just takes know-how.

For the doubters about Ai, well... they have a 3400lbs car with full interior in the 9s and in the high 130s on motor with a 383, 200cc LT1 portings, ported LT1 intake manifold, and a solid roller. I believe the car put down 520rwhp on motor.

How about my buddy at work with a 3rd Gen Camaro with a Gen I 383 and a bunch of box-stock parts (Holley 850 carb, unworked Brodix aluminum heads, unworked Victor JR intake manifold, 250ish/260ish @ .050" Solid roller, etc. running 10.2x@130 his 2nd time out on the footbrake at 3000 lbs?

Sometimes it's not about how much money you can throw at a car. Sometimes it's about making a complete and working package

Just saying

Mike

 

Something I see missing here guys is what type of drivetrain are we talking about?

Take my setup...I dynoed my car with slicks, heavy duty 12 bolt, heavy driveshaft, race built TH-400 with a nitrous converter....not exactly the best combo for dyno numbers. My dyno numbers were not what I was expecting at ALL.

Yet I go the track, leave basically on idle, short shift 1500 rpm because my opti was destroyed, no tweaks whatsoever, no playing with anything suspension wise and yet first time out I ran times in sig.

This year I am switching over to a more radical intake, monoblade and a F.A.S.T. system...not to mention I will get my suspension in order.

After all this, I might be lucky to make 470 rwhp, yet I got feeling that once I leave the line off my t-brake @ 5500 rpm, get everything worked out the car will run 10.3's@130+ mph while weighing around 3500-3600 lbs.

Dyno numbers are nice but they are not the end all.

 

Yes, there is more to performance than hp. But we are talking about hp. And the 'net has given many people unrealistic expectations. Due to exaggeration, outright lying, and the concept I have been trying to get across about someone, somewhere, doing something once not translating to the idea that YOU can do the same.

Rich

 

Couldn't be...it was a dyno trick, or they are outright lying

 

I agree, With my engine happier(the two hurt pistons fixed) I venture to say I put down 470+ rwhp locked through a 4L60E and a 4.11 geared nine inch. It made 463 locked(SAE) with the two hurt pistons.

My tight converter and too much weight have kept me in the 11.00 range, but the 122.9 UNLOCKED trap speed indicates I am making good power @ 3800 lb raceweight. But the car WILL like the spray with the tight converter.

WIth a six speed a 12 bolt and aluminum driveshaft I would go out on a limb and say this engine would make 510+ possibly 520 to the wheels. IMO that puts me close to the 600 FWHP mark.

But I want ET...ELAPSED TIME.The car and I both are about to lose some weight. at 3500lb raceweight and a 200 shot I may have a 9.50 streetcar...how cool would THAT be?

Ai has their poop in a group obviously, dyno numbers are one thing. The clocks dont lie.

Anyone know the raceweight on the 500rwhp 355 six speed car that ran the 10.90?



David

 

Sarcasm? Directed at? Impressive results, no way I could know how legit but look at the Engine Masters article and see just what it took to get a verified 600hp out of a pump gas Gen 1 SBC. 520rwhp =~610hp. About in the ballpark of Joe Sherman's winner. Without knowing more about it, all that can be said is "difficult but not impossible". I don't think I ever said impossible, only that they are rare as hen's teeth and many supposed 600hp conventional headed street small blocks are figments of someone's imagination or there is some "trick" (or lie) that they aren't telling you about.

Literally every week at the shop we see cars that were put together based on what someone read/heard/saw on the 'net that do not do what the owner thinks they should because they used the same parts as so and so or the guy who sold them the said said it would do thus and so. I see it with my own eyes, which I believe much more than something I read about from someone with something to gain.

BTW: a car running a number at the track is a very different equation than a dyno pull. An order of magnitude more variables so it really doesn't belong in the same discussion.

Rich

 

I have myself had bought into the whole see what someone else is doing and replicate to get results.

Then you start to dig into the combos and things start to make sense....such as race gas...vaccum pumps....aftermarket computer systems...spending days on the dyno trying every timing trick you can....trying out 40 different stalls speeds and a dozen tq's to get the right one....playing with 10 different gears ratios to see how the car reacts....trying different tires, heights, widths and psi....there is so much to have a perfect combo that most guys are happy if they are in the ballpark with their combo.

That is why you see so many guys build up these nice builds only to sell them off at a loss....they start to realize going fast is not like buying a Lego set...you actually have to work at it EVEN if you have nice parts. How many guys have been selling or sold really nice, top notch heads in the for sale section for nothing because it starts to get deep.

Which is why when I talk to guys and they want to go 10's NA in an LT1, I always tell them boost the car....it will put you where you want so much easier....and cheaper.

 

Very insightful.

Rich

 

I have seen top notch complete cars sold and the nezxt owner couldn't even get the same thing out of it. Alot of it is experience and how much your willing to learn. It also seems like a non stop thing. There is always something to check maintain/fix etc. and noone wants to do that. They just want fun and games. Nothing about running fast is easy...thats for damn sure.

 

Regarding buying the right parts for a motor. There is a difference between assembling a motor and building a motor. There is usually quite a difference in horsepower.

 

That would be pretty damn cool. Do it

 

Rich, at the Engine Masters Challenge, they are limited by compression ratio, a spec pump gas fuel, and especially by RPM. I just happened to reread the GMHTP article last night about the naturally aspirated LT1 and LS1 shootout they had a while back. It's the August 2007 issue. Rick Abare's car was in it with Ed Wright. It says that Rick's 383 had 11.6:1 compression compared to the 10.5:1 EMC limit. His shift points are listed as high as 7,540/7,680 compared to the EMC's 6500 redline. His raceweight is listed at 3,472# and was running 10.05-10.11@131-132 all day.

On the other hand, Ed Wright's 383 has 14.26:1 compression, shifted at 7,900, weighed 3,280, and trapped the same MPH (with transmission issues.)