Sorry Chuck there's to many foundations already, I've had the 'Save the SS' foundation for a while

 

Ok, talked to Big Rick... Nice guy, fast e-mailer too Anywho, he says his car is strictly racing... but he's got a buddy with an almost identical setup to mine... Only diff is cubes. He's got a 396. Otherwise though... AFR 220's, very similar cam, 13:1 compression (on pump gas btw), etc. He says it's a beast, and that it did surge below 2500 rpm. But it also made 520 rwhp and ran mid 10's Guess I'll ask him where he lives now...

Later
Chuck


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97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

 

i've always been told, its much easier to overcam a motor than it is to under cam one

I think for a great streetable motor you should email INTIMD8.

He had a solid Roller LT1 motor, 383 with some massively ported/epoxied GTP LT4 heads and he was flying n/a and he still had a/c and it was an awesome street car (6 speed too)

send him an email

just to let you know, i read on my local board that he is taking a trip on vacation for a few days so he may not email you back soon

 

Well, it'd be tough to get a test drive at the moment... my engine is still in California, and my car looks like this right now...

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlab/pi...Newpaint05.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlab/pi...Newpaint06.jpg

It's in the process of becoming '02 Corvette Electron Blue Metallic. We shot the jambs, hatch, and engine bay at my friend's shop so we could take our time, but the exterior will be done this weekend in the booth at the Ford dealership he paints for.

I definitely believe (along with others here) that smaller is better where cylinder heads are concerned. We went with 215cc raised runner heads instead of 210s for a more ideal intake port layout (and to be a little different) but took the heads as-cast from AFR and "barely" worked them over. They still flow in the 340 cfm range, but the intake runners were purposely left pretty much alone to promote higher velocities. I don't have all the details on what was done, but you can always shoot an e-mail to Mark Montalvo and ask him why we did what we did. He didn't recommend AFR 220s or 227s for a street car, either.

My cam is probably borderline streetable for some, but that was one of the key requirements for my engine. I told Mark up front that it would be 95% street, perhaps 5% track, and that it had to live off 92 octane pump gas, idle at a reasonable rpm, and drive well. Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too, right? There will probably be some small amount of cam surge, but I believe that the higher the compression and displacement, the less surge will be an issue. I could be wrong, of course.

Some people would probably think that it's fine (Jordon, for one), and some would probably hate it. People say the same things about the CC306, from what I've read in the past, so it all comes down to your personal preferences and what you can "live" with. Like Ken said, it'd be nice to drive something similar before taking the plunge, but I didn't have that luxury, and I knew that the car would be a little more "radical" than most people would probably like, but I wasn't shooting for a daily driver, and it wasn't all that docile when it had a tweaked rotary and a "binary" unsprung 4-puck clutch. In fact, it was probably worse because of the lack of low end power. Mark and I went back and forth on the cam design for a month or so, tossing ideas around, and I finally decided to trade horsepower for better drivability, so we went with what Mark considered a "milder" cam profile.

My application is a bit different though, which goes without saying. It's a 6-speed manual of course, (and I wouldn't really recommend a cam as big as mine to someone with an automatic who wanted a relatively docile street car) but my car also weighs a good 700+ lbs less than the average 4th gen. F-body and so where you might need more rpm to make the power to get the F-body rolling, I expect that it'll be about as simple as just letting the clutch out in my car, especially with 4.10s in the diff, and a 2.97:1 ('93 G92 T56) first gear. The light weight and short gears should make it really easy to drive the car on the street, assuming that cam surge isn't too bad, of course.

Hope that made some sense. I'm too tired to proofread it.



[This message has been edited by jimlab (edited August 07, 2002).]

 

My cam is only a little larger than Jordon's. It is a Cam Motions 247/250 .658/.659 112. Last year I had a 254/260 GTP solid roller in a 355 motor...way to big. With this new cam and 41 more cubes, it is very tame and I must say that I doubted the power potential with this cam, but I am very happy with it now. I have even more tuning to do as well.

Jason

 

Jason: I have maintained for a long time that a relatively small cam with big lift and relatively small heads is the way to go for a street/strip car. Interesting that you have come to the same conclusion. Having driven your previous setup, I would describe it as "fun" but not what I would want to drive regularly on the street.

The idea of a 4th gen as a platform for a "race" car doesn't make sense to me anyway. It's too heavy and the weight distribution isn't very good. The Opti/stock PCM has limitations as well. Obviously, these can be replaced and the other problem rectified or worked around (for a price!). But why not start with something more suitable in the first place if you want a "race" car that can occasionally be driven on the street? But a 4th gen is a great platform for a dynamite street/strip car (like yours).

I sincerely hope Chuck is happy with what he is building, but I predict it won't be a great race car and it will be annoying on the street (if he goes with the big cam and heads). Chuck: why not a cam and heads that are a bit smaller and ` 100-150 nitrous shot for the track?

Rich Krause

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'95 Z-28 383 with Vortech, nitrous, etc.
"1FASTZ28"

 

Thanks for all the thoughts guys... I think what I've decided to do is try this setup for awhile. If I don't like it I'll throw in a milder cam. Just from hearing and talking to a few people w/ similar setups, it sounds like it's going to be about what I expected... So I should be pretty happy with it. But if it's too much to handle though, putting in a smaller cam won't be that hard to do... Like Bryan at Race Prep told me, most people don't find the cam they like on the first try. Usually they have to try several different ones before they land the one that they really like all around. So that's just probably what I'll end up having to do.

And hey, cam swaps are fun

Thanks
Chuck

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97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

 

Well, my thoughts have always been that it's easy to go fast with nitrous. I like doing things different and having an N/A motor that beats most s/c'd and sprayed motors... Just a matter of personal preference really. I'm sure I'd like a supercharged car or nitrous... I'm just not ready to take that step. In fact, I think this might be normal for car guys... build something N/A to see what you can do... then after you realize how dumb that was you'll supercharger or turbocharge the rest of your life. Since I'm only 20 this will be my N/A motor.... I'm sure when it's time to replace it though a s/c or turbo setup will go under the hood...

Thanks
Chuck

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97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

 

I can't comment on the cylinder heads, but ARE has had good luck with AFR heads.

I think your cam sounds good for a stroker, you need a bigger cam for the cubes.

If you are a pure drag racer, you know you will want to run 28" slicks and a 4.56 gear with 7000 rpm shift points.

Us LS1 guys with the strokers, whether it's ARE or MTI are running durations in the 237-244 range with hydraulic cams and a solid would be more in the high 250's or the 260's for sure. I have a a 242/242//114 now but with mild compression so I am installing some 11.75:1 LS6 heads and maybe going more radical with the cam. I'm looking for 126-127mph at 3400 raceweight.

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1998 Formula | ARE 422ci iron block with Stage II heads | 40 lb Injectors | LS6 Intake | TTS headers | 3" ORP | Mufflex 4" Catback | MSD Wires | Whisper lid | SLP MAF | FLP level IV 4L60E | Yank TPE4400 | Moser 9"/4.10's | RT Torque Arm | HAL Shocks and Springs (front) | V6 Springs (rear), Alston 8 pt Rollcage | Airlift Airbag | Weld Prostars | ASCD Hood | 11.15@120.30mph 1.53 3625 raceweight LS1TECH.COM

 

I'm gonna offer my opinion here too. My experience is limited compared to these folks, but just hear me out.

AFR 210s ported by Combination (I'm biased ) to match the cam. Seth told you that they'd hog out the 220s cuz that cam is pretty dang big, if you want, they can also do a velocity port. They are very experienced with turbo applications, so they know how to get good velocity

CompCams Solid roller using RT series lobes 4121 for the intake and 4131 for the exhaust ground on a 115+5.5*.

The specs for these lobes are:
#4121, 274@.020, 244@.050, 167@.200, .656" lift with the 1.6 rockers
#4131, 290@.020, 260@.050, 183@.200, .688" lift with the 1.6 rockers

Here's why I chose those lobes. They have around the same lift as his other cam, but I'm betting a lot more area under the curve. Chuck hasn't given me the duration @"advertised" or @.200, so I can't really tell for sure.

PLUS, Chuck has been saying on here that this will be an NA motor, but he said to me that he MIGHT do a 100 shot on top of it. My recomendation is, if you're gonna spray, spray all the way. This cam would absolutely LOVE a 200shot

With the wider LSA and advance it would idle MUCH better than the 261/269 on 111LSA.

With the much smaller intake lobe you will gain probably 50ft-lbs @3500RPM and only loose maybe 25 peak horsepower, but the peak will come much sooner. With this cam you will have MUCH more power EVERYWHERE under 7k RPM and since you'll still be using the stock PCM, this is where you need it.

I'd like to hear what "the experts" think about this

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Cheston P - IM_A_0@yahoo.com AIM:Impalaitis
96 BBB Impala SS "ADIOSS"
91 white Caprice 'n0n 9c1' w/L03

GM_TBI listserv
GMForums.com
ImpalaSSForum.com

 

I know the benifits of a smaller cam, and already plan to swap cams if I don't like the way this one drives on the street... But as far as heads go, won't a set of "velocity ported" 210-215cc heads give me the best all around performance for whatever cam I choose to go with? I know the 210's would be plenty for what I want to do right now... But if the 220's are going to be the same size/price, then it would be nice to have a pair of heads that could be made better/bigger down the road if I wanted to. Just a thought.

Thanks
Chuck

------------------
97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

 

Chuck i have a similar setup

you are more then welcome to come drive it, altho I am kind of far away. My setup is:

396 AFR 210 heads flowing ~300/225 at .650, the cam is a 248/252 .660/.643

the bottom end is splayed 4-bolt mains (callies) eagle crank 4340, 6" eagle rods, ah heck just go here http://www.fastblackformula.com then the modificaions site.

it drives like a dream, 95+ and 100% humididty here in florida, and i cam sit in trafic for hours with it getting no hotter then 200. normal driving ttemp is 185. i have NO surge except in 1st gear around 1200-1500 RPM, nothing in any other gear. I also have the street twin, 12 bolt with 3.73s.

just needs alittle more tuning and it will be p to snuff with jasons I believe.

Feel free to call me and setup an appointment to drive it (386)679-6946

------------------
Patrick Carter EX '01 HI
94 Quasar Blue Camaro
396 solid roller with AFR heads

www.fastblackformula.com

 

Hmm... daytona beach. Haven't been there for awhile. I guess I'll check into what fares are running nowadays for that part of the country. I'll let you know.
Sounds like a nice setup. But your cam is a good bit smaller than mine. What's everybody think? Would this be a good comparison for what to expect mine to be like?

Thanks
Chuck



------------------
97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

 

BTW. Is that Jordon's old motor?

Later
Chuck

------------------
97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

 

Call me a pansy, but I figure my LT4 engine will not be all that driveable (Partially though due to it is with a TH400).

396, 11.8:1, AFR 210s, FAST, .644/.614 lift 250/256 dur @ .050. Slightly More cubes, and slightly less cam.

JM $.02 but put a smaller cam in first, and if you think you can tolerate more, then go bigger. Alot of this depends on your heads also. As most of this thread is discussing, they need to be matched. I think Rich put it best, that using a mistmatched Head/Cam combo will result in the worst of both worlds. Personally I'd match the cam to the heads once they're done.

You're going down the right path but a power adder is really the only way to get a solid HIGH hp car w/o sacrificing alot of that Driveability. That lumpy cam might even seem cool, at first, but it will wear on ya over time (Depending on how much you drive the car).

All JMO. Usual Disclaimers apply.

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Kurtis Tamez
LT4-396.com
97 Z28 LT4-396
94 Firehawk LT1-396
Team NW F-Body