chucks97ss

I'm trying to decide what to do top end wise on the bottom the end we're putting together... here are the details.

383 ci
block- splayed mains w/ Pro Gram caps, 1/2 fill hard blok.
rotating assembly- Eagle 4340 crank, Eagle 4340 6" H beam rods, Ross forged aluminum pistons.
Compression- between 12.5-13:1
Cam- Custom solid roller grind from Cam Motion... 261/269.5 duration at .05, .674/.685 lift, 111.3 lsa.
Valvetrain- Jesel shaft mount roller rockers
Induction- 58mm Holley
Exhaust- Hooker LT's, custom true dual 3" exhuast. Cats, no mufflers, built in baffles, soon to add a pair of QTP cutouts in front of the cats.
Transmission- M6
Clutch- Street twin
Rear end- Haven't purchased yet... but am planning on a 12 bolt w/ anywhere between 4.10-4.56 gears.

Ok, so anyways, I'm trying to build something pretty healthy for the track, but yet run it on the street (I'll be using 106 octane unleaded). Right now I'm looking for the best heads for it. Here are my options as of right today...

Option 1- LPE CNC'd LT4's- I've heard they're really good... but haven't found anyone running them.

Option 2- AFR 220's ported/polished by Combination Motorsports of Las Vegas. Seth there claims the following. He says my cam is too big and that for me to run it on the street I'm not going to have any low end. He said it just plain won't run. Then he tells me for heads he wants to put on a fully hogged out set of 220 AFR's. I'm thinking, "ok cool"... but he's saying stuff how he'd just make them as big as possible because my cam needs it. How in the world is that going to help my street driving issues he's telling me I'll have!? So that kind of makes me leary because I don't think that's the answer to this motor. I think I need something a tad small that's going to have good velocity so I can have some low end... but at the same time flow enough to produce the numbers up top. He said a fully ported set of 220's will end up being 225-226cc intake runners.

Option 3- AFR 220's ported/polished by Race Prep in California. Bryan at Race Prep has a totally different percpective on the situation. He says that yes my cam is very large, but that lots of guys nowadays are running big cams like that on the street. So he doesn't think I'll be dissapointed. His suggestion for heads is the same AFR 220 castings... but his ideas are totally different. He starts out with the bare casting (so does Combination) then works up. But he won't take them as far as Combination. He told me he recently did a pair of 210 AFR's and the intake runners only ended up being 195cc, but that they flowed about 315 cfm. He does it this way to have good velocity. He'd do the same w/ the 220's he says except they'd obviously be a little bigger. The goal- as much air flow in as small of runner as possible (I guess).
Bryan laughed when he said how good the air speed was in this type of setup. So I guess they have pretty good velocity.
Then on the other hand I have Seth telling me I need as big of a head as possible to produce the numbers I want to make.
Now, comparing the 2 doesn't take a rocket scientist. One person obviously focuses on numbers below the curve, the other focuses on peak numbers. I'm not at all bad mouthing either one of them. In fact, they're both extremely nice guys! They both treat you like friends. The cool thing about Bryan and Race Prep though is that they're all students from the School of Automotive Machinist. That might not really be a big deal to most, but since I'm enrolled to go there sometime next year it's kind of cool... Plus they fact that SAM is probably the BEST in the nation as far as cylinder head training. Bryan just reaked knowledge on this subject. He knew his stuff! He was very confident in what he does, but without having the normal arrogance about it. He's just plain honest with you. Really nice guy...

So anyways, sorry for the long drama. I just wanted to give you my whole percpective on the situation and see what you all think and suggest. From all the talking I've been doing with other LT1 owners, w/ my compression and cam I should easily be able to support a set of 220's on the street... In fact, if Race Prep does the work they wouldn't even be 220cc. Probably around 210ish I'm guessing. Bryan said all I need is something in the 320-330 cfm range (which I guess it no problem to accomplish with the smaller runner).

So let me know what you all think

Thanks for the help... hope I didn't wear your eye ***** out

Chuck
BTW. race-prep.com . Check out their shop!!!


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97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

Wicked

Sorry if I missed something, I just skimed the post. Anyway, I'm running a set of AFR 210s race ported by GTP. The heads are really nice, but I have quite a bit of money in them. My car made some good power all the way through the RPM band. I have a pretty sizeable cam(242/248 .625/.640 w/ 1.6s) and 3800 stall convertor.

I believe if your heads are too big for your application, you only lose low end torque?

At any rate I'm really happy with my AFRs. I had a set of AFR LT4 190s on a stock bottom end LT1 and the car ran GREAT. On motor I'd run 12.3s@116 on 150 shot I'd run 11.19@124-127(depending on what rear gears I had, but the car always ran 11.19)

I'm hoping for my current set up to run low 11s@118 or so. We'll see in a few weeks. =)

I'd say to get the AFR 220s have a good valve job done to them and call it a day.

Later,
Jason

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Plates: "Stock 95"
1995 Firebird Formula
O'ring/4bolt 383, GTP Race Ported AFR 210s, Yank TH400, Yank 3800 Stall, Trans Break, Moser 12 Bolt w/ 3.73s, and the usual stuff like Hooker Long Tubes, Holley 58mm TB, Sphon Torque Arm, etc....

89ProchargedROC

are your bottom end parts together yet?

i know someone selling a 396 longblock that will flat out fly

if interested email me

Wicked

Went back over the post again, I see you do have a pretty large cam with a lot of duration. The only problem I see is that your motor is going to want to be shifted at what 7500 rpms? The Stock computer can handle that.. Just wondering if you are going with a DFI? If so what kind? I am going to upgrade to a solid roller cam this winter and also go with a DFI.

I checked out the pics of your exhaust, looks SWEET! How much did the entire set up cost you? (minus cats) I want to go true duals but am undecided on if I want to go out the side like yours or dump the exhaust at the axle. How is your car as far as clearnce on the ground?

Later,
Jason

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Plates: "Stock 95"
1995 Firebird Formula
O'ring/4bolt 383, GTP Race Ported AFR 210s, Yank TH400, Yank 3800 Stall, Trans Break, Moser 12 Bolt w/ 3.73s, and the usual stuff like Hooker Long Tubes, Holley 58mm TB, Sphon Torque Arm, etc....

chucks97ss

89ProchargedROC, yes I have purchased all the bottom end components. Right now it's at the machine shop getting the block work and balancing done. Then we'll put the shortblock together.
Jason, yes, for now I'll be using the stock computer till I can afford an Accel or FAST... Not sure yet which one I'll go with. The Accel is pretty good for the money, and lots of people run them so that's probably the route I'll go.
My exhaust cost I think around 600 dollars. I could've probably had it done cheaper. It sounds really good the way it's set up. Ground clearance is an issue though. I'm at stock height and it clears most stuff fine. But if you hit a big bump or something it scrapes, for the most part it's not bad. I couldn't ever lower the car if I wanted to.
Anybody else have thoughts?

Thanks
Chuck

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97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

rskrause

The guy named Seth has a point. In general, what you want to avoid in setting up a car is a "mismatch" between the parts. If you have serious "mismatch" you will get the "worst of both worlds". IOW: if you use a small cam and big heads you will have a motor that performs poorly at both low and high rpms. Faults don't cancel each other out!

In terms of the specifics of your setup, you have a big cam. It will not have good low end performance no matter which heads you get. If you get heads that are too small you wiil also not get the high rev benefit of a big cam. So why not get big heads? I think Bryan is "wrong".

I personally would not enjoy driving a car with the cam you describe on the street, but to each his own. But with this cam you should get big heads, so at least it runs fast at the track. Frankly, I'd go with an even bigger cam since yours will be useless (by my standards) on the street anyway. I have driven similar cars and just don't like 'em. But it's a matter of taste. Of course, a cam that was bit smaller and the smaller heads would be dynamite combo and would be my personal preference.

Rich Krause

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'95 Z-28 383 with Vortech, nitrous, etc.
"1FASTZ28"


[This message has been edited by rskrause (edited August 06, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by rskrause (edited August 06, 2002).]

OneFlyn95z28

Chuck I would go for a set of high velocity ported 210s. We are selling a set of AFR 220s Ported for power. they just do not have the velocity for the street on a 396. If we had a 421 they would be great but they surge at any thing under about 3,000.

I will see if I can shoot JimBob over here to coment for you. he is the man in this area

Good Luck!

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Ellis
Team Captain
Team North West F-Body
www.teamnwfbody.org

Jason Short

#1: Use AFR 210s not 220s
#2: Dont bother filling the block, it is not needed and only will be a hassle machining.

Jason

chucks97ss

"#2: Dont bother filling the block, it is not needed and only will be a hassle machining."

According to my mechanic Hard Bloking is very simple... And I don't know what you mean by machining... it doesn't require any. You just pour it into the water jackets around the cylinder walls.


rskrause: What's your definetion of a street car? I personally have never even driven a car with a solid roller cam, so this motor is a HUGE step upstairs for me period. My main concern is just being able to drive on the streets without many adverse driving effects. Obviously the cam will surge a good bit (to me though, I like that kind of stuff)... and besides, w/ a set of deep gears I don't think that'll be an issue. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think w/ some good tuning this motor should be "streetable". Not neccessarily something you'd let your mom or wife take to get grocery's in... but something you go out in the evening or on weekends with just to have fun with. I've got an 8 point roll bar in the car, LOUD exhaust, no stereo, complete spherical bushing'd rear suspension, etc. It's not exactly a comfortable car by any terms. I've built it to be the maximum of N/A power and then drive it on the street because it's like the fastest car in town I get the shivvers when I hear the rumble of something like this going down the street.

OneFlyn95z28: Like I said, the 220's ported by Race Prep would probably be under 220cc. The bare castings come at about 195cc I think is what Bryan said. So they work up from there. They keep the runners small for velocity, but at the same time are able to get them flowing 320-340. They would also flow up to .700 lift to accomidate my cam. These guys by no means don't know what they're doing. He's very confident he can make a set of 220's have good velocity and at the same time flow the numbers this motor needs to make excellent power up top.

Thanks
Chuck




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97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

kmook

The 4.56s might help around town on make up, but you'll also be going into at least 5th at the track.

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Ken Mook - 97' SS #2544
Advanced Tech Posting Guidelines

• ?rwhp & ?rwtq Naturally Aspirated on the Stock Bottom End.
• Stage 3 Pro Performance Heads, Solid Roller 242/248 Cam, Endur-X Lifters,
• Jet Hot Hooker LTs, True Dual 3" Exhaust with x-pipe, and the list goes on and on...

chucks97ss

With 28" slicks and a motor that you all are telling me will be making power up to 7500 rpm? According to our calculations w/ a 26" tire and 4.10's we won't even hit 7000 through the traps. So I emagine w/ a 28" tire and 4.56's I'll be right on the top of 4th.

Chuck

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97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

kmook

Ahh, Didn't metion tire hieght in original post. So yes that would be fine at the track. But i personally hate getting into a race while not at the track and on stock hieght tires since i have to shift into 6th usually and thats just with 4.10s.

And i'd agree with Ellis and Jason as far as the heads go.

chucks97ss

A high velocity set of 210's that flow healthy numbers?

Thanks
Chuck

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97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss

Serial Thriller

Out of curiosity, why bother with cats when there is no way that beast will be emissions legal?

chucks97ss

Basically because I like the sound of cats. And since we didn't use mufflers they act as a muffler... Plus, if anybody ever pulled me over at least I would have them. I plan to put a pair of dumps in front of them after I get the car on the road.

Later
Chuck

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97 SS #1384
http://www.barncandles.com/camaro/Chucks.htm

Custom true dual exhaust http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/chucks97ss