Jim@GMHTP

Thanks for being generous with your interpretation of our conversation Tim. Usually when I don't tell readers exactly what they want to hear, their opinions of me are much harsher While it may have appeared that I shrugged off your suggestions, I do forward feedback to Rick and every time he asks me what I think people would like to see in the magazine, I always bring up product comparisons.

I think Rick will be doing comparisons in the future, as we have talked about specific parts. One of the toughest aspects of a product comparison is making sure the parts we test are not "ringers" and the procedure we use to test the parts is not biased and does not appear biased. I think Brian Reese is as honest and knowledgeable as the day is long, but if we test headers on his engine dyno and SLP's products come out on top, readers will scream bloody murder, regardless of the controls an parameters we have put in place for the testing. I have also talked with Jim Hall about coming up with a testing procedure to compare suspension parts (specifically torque arms). When he gets back to me, I'll forward that onto Rick as well. I know this is getting off the subject somewhat, but if anyone here can come up with a good procedure to compare torque arms, please forward your idea to Rick Jensen, which brings me to my final thought-

Here is my suggestion to you Tim. Since your test budget is equal to mine, please read Rick's editorial in our current issue (January 2004) and follow through with it. I would also like to suggest that all the great minds in the 3rd Gen world do the same thing. You can still dispense all of your knowledge on this board and others for free, but GMHTP will pay you to share it with our readers.

TRAXION

I by no means have a harsh opinion of you Jim. I want to make that VERY clear. Rather, my opinion is a 180d turn on the other side. If I implied that then I am sorry. That was NOT my intention. I will make my point clear right now - My intention was that certain topics are taboo ... no matter WHO is involved (even someone who is obviously a great addition to the team as you). My opinion of you is very positive - 'specially after all the free suntan lotion. Trust me Jim - If I had a bad opinion of you then I would speak my mind. I don't hide things or talk in mystery or stab people in the back. I am up front and clear. I had a great time at Indy - and I appreciate your work, the talk we had, ... and the ride in the road course on your car.

Understood. I recently moved and don't have the latest issue. Sometimes I should shutup until I have the latest information. Point taken and I'll read Rick's editorial.

Tim

seanof30306

tim,

this will be my final word on the subject. i don't think you're going to change your mind and i'm not going to change mine, so further back and forth is fruitless.

there aren't other ways of getting around sponsorship that will fulfill the mission statement of the magazine.

the goal of the people who own that magazing is to make as big a profit as possible. they do that by selling advertising. period.

the editirial direction of the magazine and all of it's editorial content exist for the sole purpose of attracting a readership which they can then market to potential advertisers. the more readers they attract, the more they can charge advertisers. it's that simple, and it's the same formula applied to all other magazines, television shows, radio stations, etc. it's the cornerstone of modern media marketing. you create a product which will attract users. you charge advertisers for getting their message across to those users.

in order to be able to draw from the largest advertiser base possible, the magazine must appear as neutral as possible, which is why you almost never see head to head comparisons of competing products. i'm with you on this, i'd love to see them, but it's just not going to happen.

haven't you ever wondered why there are so many similar buildups repeated over and over in magazines? that's where you find your comparisons. in july they may do a sbc buildup using one intake, cam, set of heads, etc. several months later, they'll do an almost identical buildup with a different intake, cam, or set of heads, etc. this allows them to showcase both products, and it causes readers to collect and compare the articles. they win both ways.

the reason your mini ram, super ram, stealth ram, etc. shootout fell on deaf ears is because they cannot risk alienating their advertisers by doing direct comparisons. they want ALL of them to buy ads. that's just the way things work.

going back to my radio analogy, coke and pepsi are two of our biggest clients. one of the things we offer both of them is product sampling, where we take coke or pepsi products out to our events and give them away free. it benefits us because we can offer our listeners free, cold drinks and it benefits coke or pepsi because it keeps their brand out there and allows people to sample it.

you can bet your bottom dollar, though, that we never take BOTH products out to an event. it's always either one or the other, and it makes perfect sense. they're providing the product free of charge, in return, they get exclusivity for that event.

here's how i'll bet things happened with blue thunder.

the account exec handling the slp account came to the editorial staff and said: "slp's opening a new dyno facility and would like to showcase it. can we do a story on it? there a buy for $XXXXXX on the line."

the editorial staff said: "sure, our readers are fascinated by dyno tests, and they're right near us, so it's really convenient for us, too. we have project blue thunder here, we need to test it, so we'll do the story around it."

the account exec talked to slp, then came back and said: "hey, slp markets a lot of parts for those tpi third gens, they'll not only do the dyno testing, but they'll handle the installation and provide the runners as well!".

now, the editorial department, knowing how things work, already knew there was no way they were going to be able to test as&m or edelbrock runners on slp's dyno, as they're in competition with slp for runner sales, so they agreed, even though they'd probably originally planned on waiting till later to swap the runners.

but, you can also bet that somewhere in the gmhtp archives, there's an article where they bolted on a set of as&m or edelbrock runners and posted the dyno results. a smart reader could read all three articles, compare the relative gains and have some basis to make a choice between them.

the fact is, almost all of the major parts you see on project cars are donated by the manufacturers in return for showcasing the parts. sometimes it'll be a parts warehouse that does it. a few months ago, one of the magazines did a story on a buildup with all the parts coming from p.a.w., i believe. you can bet that if p.a.w. didn't sell the part, it didn't get on that engine.

super chevy now has speed-o-motive (i believe) doing all the work and dyno testing on danger mouse. you can bet they won't be having one of their competitors doing any work on it.

there's a red and silver 67 chevelle on the cover of the september issue of hot rod. i ran across the car and the guy who built it at year one. he and his father build a lot of cars you see in magazines, including the white and orange 69 camaro convertible you've seen all over magazines for the past year.

i saw he was using the holley commander setup and asked him why he'd chosen it over gen vii dfi or f.a.s.t.. he said he's used it because holley had donated all the induction, heads, headers, ignition, etc. just to have them showcased on the car.

there's nothing unethical or sleazy about any of this. they're not lying about the results. you don't see anyone saying these parts are any better than anyone elses. they use the parts and post the results. the reader is free to make their own conclusions. the reader can also stash that article and compare it to other articles covering similar buildups using different parts combinations.

i have a detailed plan for the buildup of my tbi firebird. i developed that plan by reading everything i could get my hands on, including car mags and thirdgen.org. as i've learned more, i've adjusted the plan, whether it was a new article in a magazine or an old thread i dug up on thirdgen.org.

i'll bet there's very few people out there who will be using the exact same setup i am, as i'm not copying anyone's. i'm taking a little from here, a little from there and doing my own thing. that's the value of any magazine article. it'll either help me decide on parts to use, or it'll help me decide on parts not to use.

the one thing i'm suprised you haven't brought up, especially considering the board you moderate on thirdgen.org, is the total lack of articles in any magazine on chip burning. there are a ton of cars using those computers, but no organized aftermarket for parts and equipment to tune them. i believe that's why we don't see it. hypertech and jet sell chips (albeit bad ones) and they advertise. no advertiser's marketing a diy chip burning kit, so they won't do how to articles on chip burning and risk losing hypertech and jet chip's business. it sucks, but i understand why. bet on this. the day a potential advertiser DOES begin to market a diy chip burning kit and is willing to spend money on ads for it, you'll see all the magazines doing articles on it.

ok, carpal tunnel has set in now. i'm outa here.

TRAXION

seanof30306,

Great response. I think I actually agree with everything you just said I haven't brought up chip burning because of exactly what you said. I suggested it to Johnny a long time ago and it was blown off. Maybe I should try again?

Hey GMHTP! Here's what I wrote...
http://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml

lol. I know. I gotta suggest it formally via the postal service.

Tim

Jim@GMHTP

Tim, I just don't want people to think their suggestions are falling on deaf ears, as Sean has already insinuated in his most recent post. I want people to know we always encourage feedback and suggestions, even if we don't act on them right away.

Comparison tests are typically among the most common requests and as I mentioned earlier, I think Rick may have something in the works for a future issue. Unfortunately, good/accurate comparison testing is not as easy as four guys showing up at a chassis dyno with four different intakes and swapping them on and off the same car to see what happens.

The idea would be to minimize all the variables in both the testing procedure and the parts themselves. We wouldn't want manufacturers to send us "ringer" parts, nor would we want someone to port their intake, just so they look like they know more than the other guys.

Rick has sent an open invitation to anyone interested in contributing to the magazine and you guys have managed to fill up four pages discussing this subject. Will any of you send him a tech story with good photographs about how you were able to get better results for less money?

seanof30306

jim,

whoa ... as i "insinuated?"

i could swear i was defending you guys, but also acknowledged reality, something you don't appear to be doing.

if comparisons aren't verboten, it's really easy for you to do them.

get a stock 350 tpi camaro, dyno it, then blindly buy the other induction setups you want to test. don't call the manufacturer, call jeg's or summit as joe schmoe, buy the parts off the shelf just like we have to and bolt them on as delivered.

there's no fairer way to compare them, and that knowledge is so basic it's insulting for you to act as though you don't know that. don't throw me under the bus by suggesting otherwise. a fraternity brother of mine sells for one of the magazines in your group, i know how things work, as do you.

i admired you guys for getting on these boards and duking it out with your detractors, but laying down this load of b.s. is crap.

please point out ONE side by side comparison you've printed of competing parts.

Jim@GMHTP

Sean, I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus here, but Tim's initial comments were that I "shrugged off" his suggestion. I remember our conversation at NFME and I didn't want anyone reading this thead to get the impression that suggestions made to me or any other magazine editor would "fall on deaf ears," which I believe are the exact words you used (not insinuated, I stand corrected) in the previous post that I cited. I'm just trying to clarify the fact that we openly encourage feedback and take it very seriously and I don't want the context of that conversation to be misconstrued here or anywhere else. I'm not trying to lay down any b.s., I just want people to understand they're not wasting their breath or time by giving us feedback, good or bad.

As for the comparison, I'm in total agreement with you as to how parts should be acquired for a comparison test and was merely elaborating on the reality of why doing a shootout with the intakes from Tim's buddy's cars isn't a good idea. Keep in mind, an ideal testing scenario wouldn't end with just buying parts off the shelf. Where do you test them? If you go to a shop that sells brand X, but not brand Y, will that affiliation come back to haunt you if brand X is deemed superior? If you really want accurate testing on intakes, will you limit your testing to just a chassis dyno, or will you use an engine dyno, flow bench and dragstrip? As for testing a TPI, I currently own two LS1s and a TBI. While I like third gens, I'm not willing to buy a TPI and four intakes just to write a comparison test that might pay $500 (before paying for the proper testing facilities). That's one reason why I don't write too many tech stories

My collection of GMHTP dates back to the HTP days and I don't know if any of them have side-by-side comparisons, but that doesn't mean it won't happen under Rick Jensen's leadership. As I mentioned previously in this thread, Rick and I have had discussions regarding comparison testing, so keep an eye on future issues and you may see it.

seanof30306

tim's point was that he felt there was little interest and no action when he proposed the "shootout". i simply told him why i felt that was the case. the fact that there has been no interest expressed or action taken validates the "shrugged off/fell on deaf ears" analogy. paying the "i hear what you're saying" lip service doesn't constitute taking reader input seriously.

the shockingly simple answer to how to avoid shops that sell brand x or brand y is to go to a shop that sells none. i know of at least three completely independent chassis dynos in the atlanta area, you can't tell me there aren't some in jersey. but you do bring up a good point. using slp's dyno virtually guarantee's suspicion when you use slp parts. read the last 4 pages.

you could easily find a non-affiliated shop with a flow bench that would be glad to compare your intakes for the mentions.

as far as engine dyno testing, you could easily take a 350 "mule", bolt it on the engine dyno and have at it. you could test numerous induction systems in a short time. it's not a new idea. danger mouse. look into it.

as far as track testing, i'd love it, but you'd be looking at at least a week between each test, as there's no way you could swap out and tune that many setups in a single day. then there'd be the temp differential/altitude correction/headwind/tailwind woulda, coulda, shoulda crap that's so infuriating about so many track tests of project cars.

your mentioning the article's paying only 500.00 and not being worth the investment leads me to believe you're freelance or at least an "editor at large". you're right, it wouldn't be cost effective for someone in that position to do that, but it would be for a salaried staff writer expensing the parts.

now, i don't know anything about rick jensen except that i enjoy his writing, but i can guarantee you if the heads-up comparisons aren't killed by sales and management as soon as he proposes them, they absolutely will be the moment the sales manager takes the call from the manufacturer of product "y" cancelling their advertising after you print that product "x" outperformed them.

we both know full well that call will happen.

Jim@GMHTP

If you don't factor in magazine lead-time, then yes, it would be valid analogy. The fact of the matter is, GMHTP hasn't even run the event coverage from the NFME yet and that's where the entire conversation took place. If we didn't take an interest in reader feedback, we wouldn't bother to post on message boards and just because a suggestion doesn't show up in the very next issue, doesn't mean something isn't planned for the future. Rick barely has three issues under his editorial belt, so I would suggest giving him a little more time to get things rolling.

I am a freelancer and I don't live in New Jersey, I live in Janesville, Wisconsin, which is not exactly the epicenter of the horsepower universe. We do have some independent shops with dynos out here, but their idea of a controlled testing environment may be nothing more than a box fan in front of the radiator. I've followed Danger Mouse and read the long source box at the end of each installment, have you? If Westech were five minutes from my house, I'd probably give them a call.

Rick Jensen is the salaried staff writer and technically, the only full-time employee of the magazine. He gets to share some staff with other magazines, but otherwise, it's a one man show, which is why he's always looking for good freelancers. Car & Driver and maybe even Hot Rod can go out and "expense" an engine here or a slew of parts there, but if you take a good look at GMHTP's project cars, you'll see that they are typically owned by the people writing the stories, purchased not with a corporate expense account, but with their own money. Hunkins tried to give some insight on the operations of GMHTP in his March 2003 editorial, but ended up getting bashed for it by people who felt he was just making up excuses for why he won't run certain stories.

You may be right about the fallout from future comparison testing. It's happened before and it could happen again. Since Rick is new, maybe he'll be given some leeway or be allowed to make a few "mistakes." It would help his cause greatly if readers responded to such a comparison by filling his mailbox with letters and buying up lots of parts from the company that came out on top. Who knows, lost revenue from one advertiser could be made up by a bigger ad from another.

Let me ask you this- Is it better to do compromised comparison testing or single product testing? What if we don't have a 350 mule sitting in the corner of our garage? What if the closest independent shop with an engine dyno or flow bench doesn't feel like testing parts all day in exchange for a postage stamp-sized mention in a bi-monthly magazine they've never heard of? What compromises can you guys live with in product comparisons? Which ones will ruin the credibility of the story?

seanof30306

first, if you actually go back and read what i've written, you'll clearly see that my posts weren't directed at you, or even gmhtp specifically. rather, they were directed at the industry in general. NO ONE does product comparisons.

you'll also see that i wasn't faulting the industry for that. i was trying to explain the realities the industry operates under.

the fact is, maybe a guy living in janesville wisconsisn isn't the one to write those comparison stories. please understand this isn't a reflection on you or your abilities, but merely an acknowledgement of your admitted lack of access to resources.

while i understand that gmhtp is a "little guy" operation (and i admire that), that's not a valid excuse for not doing specific types of content. there's an expectation of performance to get in the game, and not being near facilities or having the financial resources of bigger magazines doesn't matter to readers whose expectations aren't being met. if a stripper insists on wearing boxer shorts because she can't afford a g-string, she can't complain because she doesn't make a lot of tips.

remember, i'm a fan of gmhtp. but your last post makes me think you guys could use some focus. define your niche and make sure every article fits it. if your financial resources are limited, if you're a bunch of freelancers living in wisconsin or louisianna, then specialize in low-buck projects that can be duplicated by everyday joes who don't live next door to year one or random technology. the truth is, that "little guy" position would have a lot of appeal to many of us in this hobby if it manifested itself in editorial content more directed at us little guys.

project magnum, for example, was a high buck project ... not something for a little guy. that shortblock is probably strong enough to withstand a grenade being stuffed in a cylinder, but what regular guy could afford to build that engine for his daily driver?

go to thirdgen.org and do a search on "mike crews" there's an amazing thread on there detailing the progress of his 383, vortec-headed, 3.23 geared, daily-driven tpi camaro. he drives to the track on street tires, leaves the mufflers up, sticks it in "d" and runs low, low 12s on a very modest, but very well thought out setup. i'm not pointing that out to suggest you copy his setup, but he's a little guy in aiken, sc who does a lot of research, asks a lot of questions and sweats every detail. a guy in janesville wisconsin (i used to live in rockford, il, by the way) could definitely do that.... and write about it. i'd read stories like that all day, as i can relate to that much more readily than i can a super high buck project like project magnum. again, i enjoyed project magnum, but it didn't light me up like the hsr project you guys did this summer. or even blue thunder. i LIKE seeing a real street car making incremental gains over time.

maybe that's what's annoying people. little guys don't go and bolt 400 bucks worth of intake runners onto an essentially stock 305. i'm not saying runners wouldn't be on the list of upgrades, but it'd probably have made more sense and been more interesting to see other, less expensive mods first. now, those runners skew the results of every other mod made. being a tbi guy, i blew right past the runners, but the power pulleys really grabbed my attention.

and as far as getting a mule goes? get on the internet, search engine remanufacturers and make some calls. i'd bet my bottom dollar you could find someone willing to donate an l98 for mentions. are you really going to tell me there's not a chance of gm performance parts or scroggins dickey giving you a goodwrench shortblock for mentions? come on! do you really think chevy high performance paid for their mule in the goodwrench quest? don't you think there's a gmpp dealer in the country who wouldn't like people to know there's somewhere else to buy gm engines from besides sdpc?

you might have a hard time finding shops in a smaller town like janesville willing to donate their time for mentions. there's not a large enough population base there to warrant it. come to someplace like atlanta, however, and they'll be lining up. i know, i've talked to a couple of shops here that have been featured in magazine articles. their phones light up like christmas trees. if they're assured of being showcased, they gladly donate their labor.

and as far as the controlled testing environment goes? as long as it's the same box fan in front of the radiator in all the tests, it doesn't matter. i bought a g-tech awhile back. i don't care if it gives me the same results i get at the track or on the dyno (it's actually pretty darn close). all i care about is that it's consistent to itself so i can accurately judge the effect of the modifications i make to my car. the actual time or horsepower doesn't matter. i want to know if it's faster or slower ... more or less powerful.

you know, the more i think about it, the more i think i agree with tim, at least on one point. if you're going to specialize in a segment of a market, you should know that market intimately. while you guys do a lot more 4th gen than third gen content (not arguing that fact, there are a lot more 4th gens being hot rodded than 3rd gens), when you do write about third gens, it shouldn't make everyone knowledgable about third gens gnash their teeth and pull their hair.

ok, i'm going to go pull my hair now.

Jim@GMHTP

Sean, I know your posts regarding product testing weren't directed at me and you didn't fault the industry for why things are the way they are. All I'm saying is, be patient with Rick, see what he can do.

The guys that write our third gen tech are very familiar with thirdgen.org. In fact, that may be were Hunkins found Kevin Gray. You seem to have the answers on how to do this and the resources in the Atlanta area. Perhaps you should contact Rick directly and pitch him a story idea.

90rocz

I've got an idea, take it for what it's worth. Why not feature a "Real World Build-Ups" tech article, or page, whatever...
Give a voice and picture every issue to someone who puts hard work and wrench-time in their ride, that performs well. And not like the reader rides where you have to break out the magnifying glass to read it. A working man's project, by that I mean something that's not a bzillion dollar build up, or isn't a daily driver...

BTW, if I didn't like GMHTP or others like CHP, I wouln't bust your chops, I'd just write you off and move on...
I enjoy tech articles like the one on the " Getting to know Optispark" or "Perfect Timing" etc.etc...And variety like Impala and TR articles too, as I see them all of the time at the local track and talk to their drivers.
Could I do it cheaper?, probably...If I get back from this Mass Lay Off soon, I will buy one of the $1500-$2500 305 TPI Z's in my area and find out.(documenting everything..)Right now, my engine is still apart waitiing the funding to finish, hopefully by Springtime.
But every time I see any Mag throw money and parts at a project "seemingly" blindly, giving off all of the wrong impressions. I'll RED FLAG ya!...with all do respect.

Garage Inc.

That's a badass idea. Have an article like "Real World Build Ups" every month. Eventhough I have lost interest in GMHTP and don't subscribe anymore I will occasionally buy one every 3 months or so. I didn't read most of the posts made in this thread but I heard someone mention product comparisons. GOOD IDEA

Jim@GMHTP

That is an excellent idea and one that Tom DeMauro has been trying to implement at High Performance Pontiac Magazine for several years now. The problem is that apparently, none of his readers are interested. I can understand why someone may not get too motivated to send in a picture that isn't going to run much bigger than a postage stamp, but DeMauro is offering to pay readers to write 500 words on their car, plus up to four color pictures and he gets very few takers.

Rick and I have discussed revamping the Street Heat page, as fourth gen F-bodies dominate the mailbox to the point where we begin to wonder if our readers own anything else. I'm sure he'd be open to such a format, if it can be sustained, but DeMauro is lucky to run Grassroots Racer Times more than a few times a year and his readership is much larger than GMHTP's.

If seven of you are motivated enough to put together a 500 word write-up and include five or six nice pictures, e-mail me. Seven cars would be enough to run the column for a full year and see what kind of response we get from readers. I would hold off on doing the actual write-ups for now, because I don't want to waste anyone's time if only three people will follow through on this.

jim_m@charter.net

seanof30306

jim,

i'm actually hoping to write about my l03 firebird buildup. the big question i have is about pictures.

if i use a digital camera, how many megapixels should the camera have and what format do you submit the pics in?