Maldo

http://www.gmhightechperformance.co...0311htp_frugal/

ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE THEY HAD 10k TO PLAY WITH AND THEY COULD NOT GET THIS CAR OUT OF THE 14 TEENS.


DO YOU GUYS AGREE?
I think GM high tech likes to promote anything that they can get free or who pays to advertise.. (I understand they have to make money to survive as a magazine) but they just seem to publish mis-informed articles They don't write about the real word.. Because I know I can stretch a 10 k budget allot further then they can and have a car that performs allot better then what this article claims ... as always my .02



All this work and they only went
14.48 at 95mph for a 305.... hmmm if i had to do it all over again i would have just did a
cam headers/cat back and a 150 shot.

Ok here is jimmy's break down if give 10K to play with (If i had to get a 3rd gen 5.0)

1) $300 cam/springs
2) $457 headers
3) $167 cat back (hmmm I wonder where GM HIGH TECH got that price)
4) $ 600 NOS (with a msd timing retard ignition box)
5) $100 stall speed converter (s/10 converter from gm)
6) $ 120 control arms and polly tranny mount

with that you probably got 12's

hmmm how much did Jimmy spend ....... $1,324.01 + $ 3000 (for the car) total 4,324.01 ok ok ok i will add the slp rims tires 1799.99 (which i think are a total rip off when you consider that there are allot more choices for that price and they would be cheaper) for a grand total of $ 6124.00 and i still under cut their budget by $3876.00
know if i added back the rims and just bought tires from slp $99 per tire and use the stock 16x8 rims which equals $396,, and take out the nos 600. Then i would put a blower on there and call it a day ...... so if i put back 1799.99 - $400 for just tires... sooo lets say going back to my original price $4324.01- $600 = 3724.01 which leave me with $6275.90 ... buy a 7-9 pound inter cooled blower system (with a fuel pump injectors and programming) which is about $5000.00 this will still leave me with $ 1275.90... giving me the option to add the tokico suspension 498.80 which still leaves me with $777.90. So in anther words these guys don't know how to spends their money and for the poor sap who buys a third gen and wonders why they get blown by by a import after all there mods ....


but if you just gave me 10 k i would buy a good high mileage 4 gen six speed add a cam headers and a cat back with control arms you got a 12 second car .... (LOL)



all THIS WHILE ASUMING THAT THE CAR IS IN GOOD MECHANICAL SHAPE.... (nottttt with a 3rd gen because odd are any extra power they will toast the auto tranny which will add about anther 2-3 k so realistically (in the real word where these guy are not from )

going back the original plan

i would add a tranny rebuild ,,, get vortec heads and intake (for the tpi set up) which is about $1500+ 2200 for the tranny ...

) $300 cam/springs
2) $457 headers
3) $167 cat back
4) $ 600 NOS (with timing retard box )
5) $100 stall speed converter
6) $ 120 control arms and polly tranny mount
7) $2200 tranny (with converter)
8) $1500 vortec heads and intake
9) $498 for suspension springs
10) $396 tires
grand total of 9338.00 (which includes the car) which still leaves me with $662.00 (i can buy two rims and drag tires) (LOL)

and if you really think about it i bet i can get most of the stuff at 1/2 the price used.........



You should give me ten grand to see what I can do in the real world … because the stuff you guys are smoken must be some good stuff …

I know from my own experience with third gens all those bolts on are pretty much useless look at how much money you spend just to gain 20 hp.
I am sorry but these guys look like amateurs when they print stuff like this

kevin 2.8

he has a bit over 3g's left, isnt that enough for a used 350 block, a stealthram an agressive cam and a case of beer?

Maldo

lol yeah

NastyCamaro

where can you get a catcabck system for 167 bucks ( manderel bent , etc )


....cause I reallllyyyyy need one


...BTW ...sen them that letter ...see what they say

kraftopia02

I like the massive cam, springs, yes.

~$350

To do this you'd need new exhaust. Headers, etc.

~$400

~$250

But on the 305 i would do head porting and valve work rather than vortecs.

~$500

Don't know about the LB9 (i think that's the right code) heads, but if they're anything like L98 heads i'd do 1.6 roller rockers.

~$250

Assuming used and beat 305, we'll include the rebuild with cast alum or lightwieght forged internals, 'cuase i would never, EVER run nitrous or forced induction on a non-rebuilt stock 305.

~$3500

Now add a massive blower

~$2400

3.73 posi rear gears, PERHAPS (but unlikely) 4.10s

~$500

Now tires and wheels to hold traction with the deep 1st gear of the 700R4

~$1000

I'm not one to guess times, but i'll tell you right now it'd outrun 14 seconds, and i only spent $9,150, with almost everything on the high side of estimation. Now add in buying a beater 305 TPI motor car for $850 and you hit 10K.

doug791

wow 7 grand to play with after buying the car....i hate to think that for 7 grand you wouldnt be able to do heads, cam, intake, full exhaust and gears out back. Wait okay full exhaust including headers like 650, some nice afr heads for like a grand...cam is like another 350 for all the cam and springs etc. and like what 500 for an intake?....thats like thats like 3500?!?!? plus taxes itd go to like 4 grand???? you still have like 3 grand left plus youd be easily deep into the 13's......youd have enough left to buy a better tranny, a motown block for the 383 your building on the side, and MULTIPLE cases of beer. I was reading that article ago and was like wtf i dont know jack about cars compared to these guys but they really suck when it comes to spending money!!

Maldo

Yes my thought exactly that’s why I was compelled to express my self on this board … I think it's a shame what is written in this magazine (because it could be so much more) most of the articles that I read is a bunch of bull and it does not representative the true hot rodder and most of the info is mis-leading. I see so many low budget cars that absolutely rock (including my own see my web site) It’s just picking the correct parts to work for your combo,, working smart and attention to detail. It is not necessary to spend a ton of money to have a fun and fast reliable car.

Anyone who knows the third gen f-body … knows that they need more then silly bolt-ons to make them run It is almost mandatory to upgrade the cam and heads to make any power (which is the biggest restriction) In the article they were going through the trouble to bolt on intake runners and hog out the intake plenum while still using the stock manifold (which is the biggest restriction of the whole system (I am sorry these guys are amateurs or they are just trying to push their sponsors products) to me that was a waste of time and money when a simple cheap cam swap would have yielded them about 35 hp (all that while using the stock intake system). It just amazes me how much junk they try to push though the magazine … I believe about 90% of their article are useless while a few articles yield some good knowledge.

Jim

Dirt Reynolds

Yes my thought exactly that’s why I was compelled to express my self on this board … I think it's a shame what is written in this magazine (because it could be so much more) most of the articles that I read is a bunch of bull and it does not representative the true hot rodder and most of the info is mis-leading.

A lot of the reason GMHTP started to sink was when John Hunkins became editor after Richard Lentinello. Hunkins seemed to be the champion of high-buck mods, in large part due to the fact he didn't have to pay for parts or services to his own project cars, nor did he seem to actually work on any of them himself. If you scan the pages of his articles back when he was editor, I think the only times I read where he did his own work was the time he spray painted a set of Fikse wheels with barbeque paint for that urban wasteland look.

Hunkins is, however, a very good photographer; maybe the best in his field. He should stick to that, and leave the editor thing to those like new GMHTP editor Rick Jensen, who at least seems to have an understanding of the average readership in GMHTP, and (hopefully) will begin a new era of hands-on EFI tech the average Jack can do to his/her own IROC-Z or GTA.

Some articles in GMHTP are actually quite well done. The recent story on the Stealth Ram install a few issues back for example, and track testing compared to a fully modded TPI system, was very informative and interesting.

I will give credit to Primedia for continuing to offer GMHTP to the masses. The magazine does not have an over abundance of ad revenues and exists from issue to issue, due to the niche market of GM EFI vehicles. It's basically the only ongoing magazine that covers our cars in any detail, so in that regard, I'm happy to purchase each issue to support the magazine. I'm just glad Hunkins went to Popular Hotrodding (a magazine I don't buy anyhow) and Jensen is now at the helm. It will be interesting to see how he fares over the next year or so.

Maldo

Dirt Reynolds,

Well said. Yes some articles are good but this last one they posted on the web site really blew my mind ... it shows me they don't know what they are doing. How are they suppose to get loyal readers when they have junk like that ........ Yes i found that article about the Stealth ram pretty good but it just seems to me that they should be more in touch to what going on … I live in NJ where the magazine is based and I know the places they work on thier cars and these are rinky-ding shops that are doing the work. All they have to do is hit the local street or track seen and they will see a ton fast well build cars lurking around this tri-state area in the mid night hours looking for a race. And these are no 14 second $10,000 cars . Every time somebody mentions gm high tech or slp (which is also based in NJ… ) you will get a smack on the back of the end or they will just walk away because they know you stuff is slow ... sorry but you don't see any of the GM high /slp cars cars at the local tracks around here becasue they know they will be laugh at .... by the locals ....... i mean you got car like my friend Claudes car (383 15 psi etc check out the web site) http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/mootoota and he drive this car 120 miles a day back and forth to work ...... also i drive my car about the same ..... so our cars are no trailer queens (the only time his or my car on a trailer is when is is broken )

so i would like to see these car do some articles on real street driven home built cars like ours and see how they complare against those dopes

TurboSteve

I'm sorry to hear that you are so unhappy with our project car. Editor Jensen and I tried to go the low-buck route because GMHTP had been criticised in the past for going ultra high-buck. Yes we could have spent our budget differently, but the tech articles are to inform the readers of what's available as much as they are to make progress with the project. Since the LS1 came out, the aftermarket pretty much dropped the TPI cars like a bad habit, and the 305 has bigger problems of its own, but we've tried to make the best of a bad situation. It may look as though we are sucking up to our advertisers, and i suppose you could say we are to some extent, but the fact is that our advertisers (the few we have) are the only ones making parts for our niche market. And no matter what the outcome of the test, we always bring the reader the honest answer.

A used fourth gen would have been a good start, but the initial outlay for the car would have been well over the $3000 that we paid for our third gen, and the $10,000 budget was not a lump sum that we could play with, but it was thought of as a total that we would be willing to spend over a period of time. I think most third gen owners are like myself, in that we don't have the financial ability to go drop $3000 here and $4000 there. If i did, i probably wouldn't be driving a third gen. Also, portions of the budget were also spent on non-dragstrip components that we wanted for the car, but they usually performed in some other aspect whether it was appearance or handling.

If you've been following the project, then you know it has run a best of 14.22, and while that is not overly exceptional (My '90 L98 car went 14.02 with a fuel regulator and a muffler), it is much beter than the 14.90 we started witth and that's respectable progress. We've always thought this was a real world type of project and that's why we've kept on pursuing simple bolt-ons in order to make more power. The car is driven 108 miles each day, five days a week, rain, sleet snow whatever. Look for it cruising Jersey's pothole-infested section of Rt. 80 each day.

Yes we could have thrown the jug at it the first or second time out, but number one, it's my daily driver. Number two and three, it's not exactly a wise thing to do on a 164,000-mile engine with cast pistons. I'm sure had we sprayed the car and run the number only to blow it up in the next issue and have to rebuild it, that someone would have had a fit over that. People want to see how far you can take the stock engine first, so we've been trying bolt-on after bolt-on before we hit the heavy stuff. We may have only got five horsepower here or seven there, but we are making more (Up to 237 from the 190 we started with) and we've provided the reader with information to base their decision on. We still have a good chunk of the budget left and we're finally getting to the point where we are looking at nitrous, heads and camshafts.

If you really wanted to spend the money frugally, you'd do what the majority of thirdgenners do. Rip off the TPI, throw on a carb and a big shot plate and spray it until you need a Turbo 350 and a 9-inch.The only problem with that is that there isn't anything really "High Tech" about retrofitting a carburetor to a fuel injected engine. We do frequent the tracks and shows quite often and that's what we normally find. That or TBI cars that are bracket racing because they can hit that 17.01 et every time. Fast and clean fuel-injected third gen cars are rare, otherwise you'd see more featured in the magazine.

I must say this is the first negative thing we've heard about the project. As far as project cars go, this one's been pretty well-received and we have over 50 emails of positive feedback, which is far more than most vehicles ever get. I solicited opinions and thoughts on the project in the last story and all have been positive towards the project.

Steve Baur
Associate Editor
GMHTP
steve.baur@primedia.com

Maldo

Steve,

I understand the finical obligations of your sponsors, which reflect the articles you publish But, You got to be kidding with the stuff you are bolting on to your 164,000-mile car. You and I know that those slp runners are not worth the money they charge for the power gain they provide (this is a stock motor we are talking about) the restriction in the intake manifold not so much the runners … (to tell you the truth I would have spent the money on a intake base and then hogged out the plenum)
I bet most people who are giving you thumbs up are just happy to see a tpi 305 being worked on.
A few years ago I went through a very similar process with a third gen 305 (the only difference was it was a 5 speed) I too did the same approach bolting on anything that promised more power but in the end it really just took some planning and some good pieces to make the 305 run while still staying emissions friendly. I was also a sucker to buy the slp runners (which by the way did not do much and it was not worth the 399 price tag) ok enough with the intake. This is just one example where I feel you miss lead the readers because instead of messing around with slp intake and the adjustable fuel pressure regulator which 9 time out of 10 is not necessary with a proper tune and good injectors… if you were truly looking for the low budget approach with out breaking the car and which any good performance enthusiast knows with the 305 auto tpi is that the poor performance is the weenie cam …which really limits the amount of power they made … this in my opinion should have been the concern for the best bank for the buck. (Remember we are talking about a little 305 which needs to breath to make power it does not matter how big the intake is when it can not flow air through the restricted heads and small cam.)

I think the only reason the tpi market has fallen by the waste side is miss informed info like that article because if a person were to do exactly what you are saying they would be disappointed with the performance in the real would when they get their butt kick by a Honda civic … and at that point they would get rid of the car for a lt1 or ls1 or just jump to the import market. This is where I don’t agree with you and the articles that this magazine publishes. Then you wonder why the guy with the tpi cars are falling by the waste side. I see plenty of third gen in the NJ area who are pretty quick (MID 13’s while still running the stock runners) their power is made in the heads, cam and tuning….. I really don’t want to hear you whine about how you drive your car in NJ because I also do the same (I drive down route 1) both my 3rd and 4gen are out all year around (Sadly I had to sell the third gen to get the forth gen) .
If you are serious in publishing a good low buck article I would be willing to give you a list of tricks I used (cam specs to make those long runners useful) then publish my results I bet I could knock a full second off your 165,000 mile car while still able to meet NJ emissions with out breaking the bank… basically I am calling you guys out to prove me wrong that there is some good left in your magazine and that a car like this can be made up to be cheap affordable and still be able to run with the big boys (lt1 ls1 etc)

TurboSteve

First off, the project car has a manual transmission. Secondly, we don't mislead readers. We test the parts in tech articles to see if they work. We publish the results and leave it up to the consumer to decide whether the performance per dollar is what they are looking for. It wouldn't be right for us to say that X amount is the performance per dollar ratio everyone should go by. Not everyone could afford to abide by it, so what are those people supposed to do?

If a reader's mechanical knowledge only extends to bolting on a set of runners, then that 5 or 10 horsepower that he will gain by using them may be worth the money to him. Bolting on runners may be quite an accomplishment for that reader and they may feel great after installing the item. In the article, we went on to say that we didn't expect much improvement on a 305 engine due to its size, but we wanted to see what, if anything at all, they were worth. That's not misleading, that's informing.

Adjustable fuel pressure regulators have been worth up to 20 horsepower as proven on a dynamometer.

I wasn't "whining" about driving my car, just stating that it is a "real world" project car. If you think your list of mods is magazine worthy, contact Rick Jensen with the story idea, maybe he'll take you up on it.

Bring these third gens you speak of to SLP Day this weekend, we'll be looking for feature material.

Zepher

I had about $3K into my car and ran a 14.1@99mph with a 2.3 60' time.
It was an 86 Trans Am LG4 carbed 5 speed which I converted to an Edelbrock Carb/intake setup, then I converted to a SD TPI setup with a cam, headers, exhaust, intake, tb, msd, and some suspension mods.
Now it's got an LT1.

82355

Sorry to get off topic guys, but kraftopia02: "3.73 posi rear gears, PERHAPS (but unlikely) 4.10s

~$500"

Have you ever drove a TPI car with deep gears??? 3.42 is the limit. I know, I am driving a 305 TPI with a 3.73 posi axle I set up with some spare used parts. The gears are too deep. I have also helped swapped a 3.42 axle in a buddies car, they complimented the engines powerband quite nicely. 4.10's would be really pathetic, quit passing off bad info, maybe you should read GMHTP more often.

TurboSteve, in your next segment you should inform people about rear gear selection, so many people want to overdo it with TPI cars.

On budget built fast fuel injected 3rd gens, my buddy has a '91 RS with a 350 TBI (yes throttle body) that runs a traction limited 14.0 (running of F41 16" rims with street tires). He took a 350 TBI engine from a Chevy truck (free), reringed it ($150), he home ported a set of L98 GTA heads for it, Comp XE276HR cam($240), used Edelbrock TBI intake($100), used Holley TBI ($100), used Edelbrock headers with homemade dump ($200). Freshened TH700R4 with higher stall ($250) bigger boost valeves, Corvette servo, etc. and 3.42.1 posi disc axle out of a 305 TPI T5 Formula. The hole set up cost him maybe $1,500 besides the cost of the car.

Martin

IZ28

Sounds like you guys need to visit ThirdGen.Org more!! They woulda told you to go a different way with modding that car from the start.