90rocz

Well, I just read it again, and I agree about them "jumpin the gun" on stuff like the AFPR, Runners etc. That's mostly my point, UNTIL you squeeze every last Pony out of the "stock-Free-Modded" set up, don't go "bigger is better"....You end up spending BIG $$$ and get disapointing results. And from what GMHTP has given us in the past, I expected more.....

And it was the COMBO of the Runners & Pulleys that netted the 20HP, everyone KNOWS you can't get those numbers on a stock car with just runners. Pulleys DO add HP. I found out when my drive belt shredded from a locked up tensioner. I even raced a tricked out truck on the way home, and my car was a BEAST in 2nd gear!!!The seat of the pants-O-meter went off the scale!!!

I guess I would've done something like this:
1)Set the TPS to get .54v @ idle AND 4.50v at WOT, this involves ovaling the mounting screw holes and playing with the ecentric positioning of it.
2)Set the minimum air bleed
3)Do a "quality Tune Up, "Spiral Core wires, brass inserted cap&rotor, More than $2 plugs, set timing up 4*-6*,K&N or Equiv air filter, FULL Synthetic oil w/GOOD filter, flushed and filled coolant with distilled water and 60/40antifreeze.
4)Removed the MAF screens(not keen on porting it)
5)ported the Plenum's front opening
6)relocated the IAT sensor
7)T/B coolant bypass
8)installed at least a 180* T-Stat
9)good cat-back with at least 2.5" tubing and mandrel bends.
10)get a soft rubber compounded set of tires on the rear, like a 35K mile tire vs a 70K mile tire...play with pressures.
11)removed at least the sway bar end links(maybe just at track, even)
12) Removed the Spare Tire & junk for weight reduction.
Well, something like this anyways, maybe freshed the clutch in their case...
Then went to the "Market"...still conservitively, like a chip, module, coil, low temp fan switch, etc........

KagA152

i only read the first few post, but...

1991 Trans Am 305 5-speed, 110,000 miles, bone stock, $4200, almost pristine shape

Used headers: $100
Used cat-back: $200
BFG Drag Radials w/spare rims: $300

Went 14.45@95.25 w/2.1 60'

Somebody give me the other $5200 I havent spent yet and see how fast I can make a 305 go

ABUBACA

Well, if you didn't read the whole post...

...they haven't spent all the money yet, and a lot of it went to rims and tires.

I'm not against the money issue, and as a fellow TPI guy, I am a little interested in what they can do, but I think the problem that some of have is that the impression a newbie may get is that this is the way someone should build up a 305 TPI. NO, they didn't actually say this is the what should be done, but that's the impression I think a lot of us got.

I did.

90rocz

Combination is everything on our cars, I mean you can throw on a good piece of hardware, but w/o its supporting pieces or mods you've wasted your money. Certain conditions must be met to before you see gains of advertised proportions.
Example; an Air Foil, by itself its worthless to a stock motor...maybe 5 or 6hp..maybe. But say it's an addition to heads, cam and headers, now it's worth over 15+HP!
To test products by themselves, isn't fair to the car or Manufacturer, unless you compare say...cfm's on a bench.
It's not just GMHTP, it's all over the industry...
I'd say GMHTP does it the least maybe, but we have even bigger hopes in them being an EFI industry leader by listening to "us" as a thinktank. And taking our knowledge combined with what the aftermarket is doing to push the envelope in performance!
That's why some of us are especially hard on them....

BadRocZ

I "super-tuned" (mainly free mods and a free not so free - mainly labor) to a number of 350 TPIs and few 305TPIs. These cars were basically new some with less than 3,000 miles on them. So the engines, transmissions, electronics, and sensors were all original, new, and in good operating condition. While there were variances of .3 - .4 seconds when they arrived in totally stock condition, I was able to get the ones with the exact same mods and gears to run almost identical times.

One good friend bought a 305 TPI - 5speed with 3.42 gears. I did no more than add a 160 degree thermostat, TPS and timing adjustments, remove the splash guards in the air box (not gutting it or running a ram air set up), and add K&N filters. NOTHING MORE. Before these changes the car ran a low 15.0 on the Vericom on the street tires with him driving it. After the changes the best he could do was 14.7s. I jumped in the car and on my first time driving it ran a low 14.3. I told him how I was driving it,, and he ran a high 14.2s on street tires on his first pass. That was Friday night and when we took it to the track Saturday night, it ran two high 13.9s and a number of 14.0s on 26x8.5 slicks before the clutch left him. Now,,, the dude spent about $55 in parts and borrowed a set of slicks mounted on steel rims to get himself a couple 13 second time slips (the replacement clutch was covered under warrenty,,,, ONCE - lol)

The point being two fold - 1) you can get a wide variance in ets just in how hard you're willing to push the 5-speeds. 2) I doubt these time could be easily duplicated on a 12 year old car. When working on factory fresh or freshly built engines, you can consistently duplicate results. Throw in the wear and tear of 12 plus years and how well a car is maintained,, or not maintained (regardless of the miles), then you have no real basis to judge how fast you're able to make YOUR car run compared to how fast someone with equal knowledge and driving skill can make THEIR near identical (or what appears to be near identical) run. Folks that have worked on a large number of vehicles in various stage of deterioration understand this.

Again,,, the addition of the runners at the stage of the game that they added them probably wasn't what I would have personally done. However,,,,,,,, Steve said in the article "While the runners are better suited to the L98 350 engines, I was interested to see what they could offer,," Then the article reports the results of a before and after runner pull,,,, 5 peak HP and 6 peak lb/ft TQ. How is that misleading???? To me it's not a bad thing that they added the runners - if someone reads that and can't come to their own conclusion that the runners were not really worth the money involved (at this stage of the build),,,, then I feel sorry for them.

97WS6SCharged

I just went back and reread a bunch of this post. I can't believe they spent 1700 dollars on a set of rims and tires for a car that costs 3000 dollars. Reminds me of the 1988 K car with 20 inch rims on it. How much did they spend on those rims they put on Magnum TPI? The ROH ZS rims I think is what they are. Those look much better on a 3rd gen than the SLP rims. Or put a set of Telstars on the thing like they put on the grape of wrath. 16x8 all around. I'm all for looking nice, but they could have done a paint job and a set of rims and tires for what they put into those. I just don't see many people putting almost 2 G's worth of rolling stock onto a 3 thousand dollar car. I'll be doing a set of 15's or 16's on my Twin Turbo GTA when/if it's ever finished. Oh well, something to think on.

90rocz

BadRocZ, my point exactly. First, he said it has been their goal to keep the project inexpensive while getting good gains($428+for 20hp??). And second, he admitted it was against his better judgement, but put the runners on anyways.
I don't have a problem with them trying stuff, but the overall implications were either, "this car is a turd that don't perform even with good parts, or it's going to take a LOT MORE $$ to get some decent numbers from this thing"...
Hell, I've got the same runners on my L98 as they do on their 305, they didn't re-disign runners for the L98's. So with 50 more cubic inches and much more power, I'm still not convinced of them being that big of a restriction on my car, yet. I'm more concerned with the base intake, but even that when ported only gives up a very few ponies to ones costing $300-$500. Still NOT worth it either to me...
Being a mag like GMHTP and approaching this project like a 3rd Gen newbie didnn't set well with most. Most wanted to see them show people what combinations in what order needed to be done to bring out the beast in these cars. On a budget. So newbies don't spend BIG bucks, get disapointed and frustrated and decide to go buy a Honda...And our piers(sp) don't think 3rd Gens are totally inferior......

steve10358

I have to be honest, I really like this thread.

I still cant believe for the money, they just didnt buy a set of heads, a cam, and carb the sucker to put her into at least the low 12's. lol.

S.

doug791

I think this is probably the best point of all. I cant fault them for putting on pulleys, fuel regulator, runners and then posting hey well this cost a couple hundred bucks and only got 5 horsepower. The way they did it is a fair honest and while understandable they could have done it much better. They took the newbish approach to our cars and went hey i wonder what will happen when we do this. If they had taken the time to do any real research they would have know hey maybe pulleys arent the most important thing to a third gen 5.0 and the runners arent a good idea either. That way they could have gone okay for this money spent this is one of the best power combos you can get, instead of we tried this and it didnt work. Doing some research and getting the best bang for your buck to point new guys in the right direction. Then the sponsorship issue comes up because they basically slapped whatever tpi parts on the car that were handed to them.....

Maldo

I guess the point I am trying to make with my thread is that to the avenger Joe who is looking for performance at a value this article or article like this really don’t tell the whole story and I think it gives false hopes or makes the tpi 305/350 look like a lost cause. people may turn away form cars or set ups like this when they read this junk . (I feel like these guys are just throwing parts on to see if things work and not taking the time to really research and do things right way to set a good example of what can be done for the average Joe bolt-ons (are you guys feeling my point and why I had to post about this article?). I have been looking around at the import seen for years and these guys are pulling great numbers out of these little pocket rockets and it just seems like this Magazine is not taking it to the next level.
To me they are bolting on junk that’s been out there forever and tested over and over again and they are just trying to fill sponsor space to drum up business for companies like SLP. (I have seen and been to their place in NJ and they are a bumbling idiot’s in my book repackaging parts from other manufactures and passing it off as there own stuff is not good business practice)
It’s funny how they cry wolf when they say there is no performance market for these cars well articles like this puts the nail into the coffin for a would be buyer who would look to buy a older third gen to hop it up look the other way.
I am sorry 20 hp for 700 bucks is not a good value to the average joe….. I can understand if you are trying to pull every last drop of power to go to the extreme… for a full out race car but, I have seen completely stock 350/305 tpi ‘s pull 12’s with just a simple nos set up (I am not saying that this article should go in that direction but using that statement as an example as a bang for the buck)
When I see articles like this it’s no wonder why look the other way from buying cars like this etc and run to the imports etc …. Or take the tpi system off and replace it with a carb etc . There is allot of potential in a stock tpi system (well at least for up to 400 hp N/A)

seanof30306

i think a lot of you are missing the point with gmhtp and magazine articles in general.

first, i don't think the best way to use them is as a blueprint for what to do. rather, i think they make good thoughtstarters.

i agree that project magnum should have been faster for what it was, but i enjoyed reading it nevertheless and got some good ideas ... both of what i want to do and what i DON'T want to do.

yeah, you can pretty much take any car, drop in a crate motor, bolt on the nitrous and run fast, but where's the process?

life's a journey ... enjoy the ride. for me, half the fun of playing with my car is making small changes and measuring their effect.

you think making tpi fast is a bitch, try tbi! after months of searching, the best info i've found from a magazine is a project hot rod did .... in 1989!

but that's the fun of it. figuring out how to do it.

i've enjoyed project blue thunder, and have again gotten some thoughtstarters, both in what i want to do and what i don't.

blue thunder is taking a similar approach to mine. i know the heads and cam are the big restrictions on my l03, but i want to see what i can get it to do before i make that swap. i make a change, dyno the car, take it to the track, then change something else.

when you take that approach, you sometimes make changes that you know won't show their full benefit till later in the process. for example, i'm in the process of doing headers and exhaust. my ultimate goal is to put a 400 or 383 in the car, so i put a set of slp (gasp! the dreaded slp!!) 1 3/4" headers into dual random technology cats into a 3" random technology cat back. i know full well that i've overdone the exhaust for my near-stock 305. i may even see a drop intorque in the short term, but i only want to do the exhaust once. that could very well be the case with blue thunder's slp runners.

if you look at it without emotion, however, those runners aren't that bad of an investment. 400 bucks for 20 hp is steep, but only a little. you'll put that much into headers and exhaust for about the same gain. a set of power pulleys runs about 100.00 and yields about 7 - 10 hp.

and as far as comparing third gens to 4th gens, that's apples and oranges. anyone with any sense understands lt1 and ls1 are vastly superior designs that make much better power. the point is, if tpi or even tbi is what you've got, then the dollars spent and gains made are only relative to similarly equipped vehicles.

i'm glad gmhtp exists. they give more attention to our cars than any other magazine i've seen. i may not awlays like what they do or agree with the way they do it, but at least they're doing it.

and as far as magazines failing at projects, how can you criticize blue thunder when chevy high performance's my generation camaro is such a turtle? a freshly rebuilt 305 with ported and polished s/r torquer 305 heads, cam, pro built carb, etc that ran a best of 15.39? oh, wait, there was a headwind! i've never seen so many excuses, lies and alibis in my life.

and what do they do? bolt on the slicks and nitrous, get a 13.82 out of the pig and get the hell on. what b.s.

at least gmhtp takes an honest approach and sticks to the rules they lay out in the beginning.

just my 2 cents worth

doug791

This is the part that people have a problem with. They did some things (most likely due to sponshorship issues) that anyone who knows anything about a third gen would tell you not to do. These cars have been around for over a decade now and if you do any research or just ask questions on a message board you will find out pretty quickly what not to do. An article telling you best bang for your buck at this point in the game is what most people are looking for, and really if this many people are upset GMHP is doing a ****ty job because their sole job is to give the readers insite into the things they want to know, none of us are interested in what doesnt work we already know the majority of wont work and anyone could have told them that the runners were a bad idea....this is where the problem lies.

TRAXION

My main beef with GMHTP is the approach. You don't take a test without studying ... and expect to do well. You don't build a house without first talking it over with the architect and contractors. AND - you don't build a thirdgen without talking to those who have done this before and know exactly how to spend the money the best.

... problem with this approach is that there are too many 'experts' out there throwing in their opinions. First and foremost - go to thirdgen.org. There's a reason the site has the name thirdgen.org .... it's all about thirdgens. Next - hang out there and get to know the players who have been in this game for a long time. Don't immediately post questions asking opinions because all the "stupid Joes" will reply with dumb advice. Track down the main players by looking at thier cars, seeing their times, and reading their past posts. Then - e-mail those guys. Ask them some serious questions including WHO ELSE they think would have valuable advice. Eventually you'll figure out the best pool of people to talk to ... THEN talk to THOSE people. Listen to their advice .... and then start the modfest.

With 10k to spend you can get a reliable thirdgen in the 12's ... with better braking AND better cornering ability. Very easy to do.

Tim

seanof30306

but can't you say the same thing about chevy high performance's my generation camaro? why single gmhtp out when all the car mags do essentially the same thing?

also, i'm not entirely in agreement about going to the boards for expertise. i have gotten an incredible amount of information from thirdgen.org, but some of the accepted "basics" there are just wrong. for example, all you hear about on the tbi board is the "ultimate tbi mods". i took a spare throttle body, did the mods, used the same injector pod on both and got the exact same dyno and 1/4 mile results. no change whatsoever, yet it's an article of faith on there that the ultimate tbi mod is a cornerstone of tbi performance.

new things are discovered by people who try things that others don't; who break the mold and walk a different path. when you do that, you're going to fail more often than not, but when you don't fail, you break new ground. if they went to thirdgen.org and did what everyone recommended, how could they have any chance whatsoever of learning something new?

as a newbie and after reading a bit about tpi, i came to the conclusion that the biggest problem with it is the long runners which limited the engine's ability to breathe at higher rpm. i found seeing a dyno test on those runners interesting. if i had a tpi, that test would make me think twice about buying those runners, just as the posts on thirdgen.org about the poor fit and quality of them would have. i would've concluded there were better and cheaper ways to get 20 hp. what i'd really like to see would be a comparison between the slp, arizona speed and marine and edelbrock runners, but no magazine is going to do that, and you can't blame them.

subscriptions and newsstand sales don't even begin to make a magazine profitable. they NEED advertisers. comparing advertiser's products head-to-head guarantees someone's going to walk away a loser. they can't afford to lose those advertisers and no one can blame them. yeah, the choice of those runners may have been dictated by client pressure. welcome to the real world.

i work in radio as a program director. there isn't a week that goes by that i don't have to consider a slew of promotions from advertisers who won't spend their money with us unless we provide them with "added value". in an ideal world i'd tell them all to go to hell. i'd be unemployed in an ideal world. instead, i make sure every promotion we do has real benefit to our target audience and i make sure the prizes are real and comensurate with the effort required to win them. that's the best i can do. i didn't find their review of the slp runners' performance to be biased, so what's the beef?

all magazines accept submissions from editors at large. if someone has a better way, all they need do is pull out the camera, sit at the computer and write away.

TRAXION

... because there is a difference between CHP which covers all years of Chevrolet vehicles and GMHTP which covers HIGH TECH performance - which means EFI cars. That's the reason.

I'll state what I said before ...
... problem with this approach is that there are too many 'experts' out there throwing in their opinions. ... get to know the players who have been in this game for a long time. ... Track down the main players by looking at thier cars, seeing their times, and reading their past posts. Then - e-mail those guys. Ask them some serious questions including WHO ELSE they think would have valuable advice. Eventually you'll figure out the best pool of people to talk to ... THEN talk to THOSE people. Listen to their advice .... and then start the modfest.

Get it?

Again I return to what I said above. The people in the know try new things all the time. Take me for example. When I joined the boards back in the mid-90's it was a 'no-no' to use long tube headers, big cams, and high stall converters. Guess what? I have long tubes, a 3600 stall converter, and a cam that you would use in a carbed application. I'm always treading new ground. I pulled 364rwhp on the STOCK L98 shortblock and expect to pull 380rwhp with the new cam (which is the fourth cam I have installed in this stock shortblock -- did anyone say anything about trying new things?).

Exactly - no magazine is going to do that. And you know what? THEY COULD. Between myself and my personal friends we have all the intakes covered ... MiniRam, SuperRam, StealthRam, Single Plane EFI, LTRs, and SS-LTRs. We talked to Jim McIlvaine and discussed this subject at the Indy '03 gathering at IRP. We would all be willing to lend our intakes for a shootout .... we even have various cubic inch motors with cams from mild to wild to try out different things. Guess what? Shrugged off. Yet this is exactly what thirdgenners want to see. I posted about this several times in response to posts MADE BY GMHTP for what their readers want to see. Everytime I have suggested it everyone chimes in and says "YES!" but it is consistently shrugged off ... probably due to sponsors. But, C'Mon. Be honest with your readers.

This is an excuse. Nothing more - nothing less. There's always ways to get your sponsorship. If you show that a good part doesn't perform well in one application then you can turn around and show that it does perform well in another. A great example is the intake comparison. All will shine in their own right.

Tim