When is Enough Horse Power To Much???
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 336
From: Indianapolis
What, like this one for $35k?
Or this brand new one for $48k?
Vets are more expensive than an Elise.
Or this brand new one for $48k?
Vets are more expensive than an Elise.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 547
Actually yes I have, I am developing a carbon fiber body for them right now and I know what they cost. The main reason they are as "expensive" as they are is the low production numbers and assembly techniques (mostly by hand). There are currently less than 3500 Lotus Elises and Exiges in the US right now. That is a fraction of one month's sales for a Camaro.
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 171
From: Michigan
I'd like to see engine and trans options available away from ANY other packaged options. That way they would stay affordable as long as they do not try to sell an engine with 2 more cylinders or with a bigger camshaft for some ignorant $5k above the base engine.
You should be able to get a base no-frills Camaro, with the biggest, nastiest, high-hp V8 without any other un-needed JUNK such as T-Tops, power leather seats, upgraded audio, and any other baloney NOT related to going fast.
In fact, I don't even like forcing BRAKE options onto the bigger engines.
A base V6 car takes no less time to slow from 120mph than the biggest hp V8 car.
And NO, there is NO such thing as TOO MUCH Horsepower !
You should be able to get a base no-frills Camaro, with the biggest, nastiest, high-hp V8 without any other un-needed JUNK such as T-Tops, power leather seats, upgraded audio, and any other baloney NOT related to going fast.
In fact, I don't even like forcing BRAKE options onto the bigger engines.
A base V6 car takes no less time to slow from 120mph than the biggest hp V8 car.
And NO, there is NO such thing as TOO MUCH Horsepower !
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 547
I'd like to see engine and trans options available away from ANY other packaged options. That way they would stay affordable as long as they do not try to sell an engine with 2 more cylinders or with a bigger camshaft for some ignorant $5k above the base engine.
You should be able to get a base no-frills Camaro, with the biggest, nastiest, high-hp V8 without any other un-needed JUNK such as T-Tops, power leather seats, upgraded audio, and any other baloney NOT related to going fast.
In fact, I don't even like forcing BRAKE options onto the bigger engines.
A base V6 car takes no less time to slow from 120mph than the biggest hp V8 car.
And NO, there is NO such thing as TOO MUCH Horsepower !
You should be able to get a base no-frills Camaro, with the biggest, nastiest, high-hp V8 without any other un-needed JUNK such as T-Tops, power leather seats, upgraded audio, and any other baloney NOT related to going fast.
In fact, I don't even like forcing BRAKE options onto the bigger engines.
A base V6 car takes no less time to slow from 120mph than the biggest hp V8 car.
And NO, there is NO such thing as TOO MUCH Horsepower !
I hope Scott is taking notes and passing them on.
I do think IF (get it? big if, lol I kill me) we get a iron block V8 as the base V8, it will be heavier than a Aluminum V6, but I don't think they will use an iron block, so the braking distances should be very similar. I plan to upgrade the brakes on mine anyway, so I would rather not pay for upgraded brakes I will be removing anyway.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 11
And, I'll take the back seat, trunk, and extra safety of a Camaro over an Elise - with the extra HP and weight that comes with it. The Corvette will compare more with an Elise. Again, I'll take the added, HP, weight and safety of a vette over an Elise as well.
Last edited by StuckInNYForever; Jan 17, 2007 at 09:53 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 547
How much horsepower does it have?!
And, I'll take the back seat, trunk, and extra safety of a Camaro over an Elise - with the extra HP and weight that comes with it. The Corvette will compare more with an Elise. Again, I'll take the added, HP, weight and safety of a vette over an Elise as well.
And, I'll take the back seat, trunk, and extra safety of a Camaro over an Elise - with the extra HP and weight that comes with it. The Corvette will compare more with an Elise. Again, I'll take the added, HP, weight and safety of a vette over an Elise as well.
As a low volume hand built vehicle, using realistic materials (fiberglass aluminum plastic and steel) it is 1900 lbs. My point is basically if GM invested as much capital into making things lighter as they did into advertising (hell probably 1/3 of that) then they'd be able to make them lighter.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
The bottom line is, what works for the small niche manufacturers does not neccessarily work a global giant like GM.
Last edited by jg95z28; Jan 18, 2007 at 02:58 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 547
You're probably right. However, then they wouldn't sell as many cars, wouldn't be the market leader in sales, and would probably be up for sale just like Lotus is.
The bottom line is, what works for the small niche manufacturers does not neccessarily work a global giant like GM.
The bottom line is, what works for the small niche manufacturers does not neccessarily work a global giant like GM.
If they dumped less into advertising and more into lightweight concepts cars would be lighter, but they would sell fewer.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 245
I hope that they have a V-8 option in the car. some of us just want a V8 camaro and some want 450-500 hp. Well I found out recently a friend bought a boxster and I asked him how much did his insurance go up. he had a 2003 v6 mustang before and he told me it went down. I couldnt believe it. I checked with my website for my car insurance and found that its true. Well I want just a v8 camaro and like in the 67 68 69 when 396's were an option they still sold a ton of 327 2 barrel powerglide camaro's. I have had a 97 Z28 with bolt ons and spray that went low 11's. now that I am 29 and had performance cars and bikes since I was 13 I have gone pass that part and I just want a sporty car that passes well and will not run out of steam passing the gray hairs on I95 in south florida.The stock 285 hp 97 had more than needed to do that. So we will see what happens. I also called and agent and found that some high end cars are alot cheaper than mustangs and such because they are rated safer then american sports or sporty cars.
As far as 16 and other young drivers. if they want to go fast they will do it anyways. look at how they drive with fart can civic's. This problem didnt just start its been that way forever.
As far as 16 and other young drivers. if they want to go fast they will do it anyways. look at how they drive with fart can civic's. This problem didnt just start its been that way forever.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 143
Sure these cars have a lot more power but they still are a lot safer. It all compensates. I would go as far to say that a 525 hp 5th gen camaro will be more safe then my 300hp lt1 trans am. Having an independent rear end, tighter more sophisticated suspension, good traction control, and way better breaks seems to be more of a safety concern to me than having lots of hp and torque. My car gets sideways w/ 275 dr and is unbearable to drive in the rain, wobbles and sways on the high way, and hates to break. i still drive it like a champ daily and never crashed into any one. The way i see it, if u drive an f body right now then ur just moving into a way safer car in 2009.
I realize that most enthusiasts like lot’s of HP and Torque and live by the adage “too much is not enough”…however, with some of the recent threads in this forum (as well as other sites) talking about HP in the 400 and up range for a (relatively) inexpensive sports coupe like the Camaro, I find myself more and more often asking when is enough HP actually too much?
I wonder if I am the only one concerned that unless the manufacturers who are producing these vehicles (vehicles with 0-60 in the under 4 second mark and top speeds approaching 200MPH) steps in of their own accord with a plan; then either the federal government or the insurance industry, or both, will.
Let’s face it, the average driver in this country can barely manage to park between the lines and about the only emergency maneuver they can handle is to stand on the breaks and close their eyes…if they had to take a real performance driving course before getting behind the wheel 80% would flunk. And even though most, especially on boards like this, like to think of themselves as great drivers, most ARE average.
Were I GM and producing 500+HP Corvette or a 400+HP Camaro I’d have to be at least a little bit worried about a multi-Billion $ lawsuit when some “adult” is stupid enough to let his 17 year old drive his Z06…now we can all say that it’s the parent’s fault for being that stupid but we all know it happens or the 17 year old will take the car without permission and it’s probably only a matter of time before some crack pot decides to blame GM for his bad judgment or his late son’s stupidity.
And how long are the insurance companies going to stay out of it?
How anxious are they going to be to insure a Z/28 with 400+ HP and is so widely available to the public? It’s one thing to have that kind of HP available in cars at or over the six figure $ mark since relatively few can actually afford them but the Camaro will probably be priced right in with a majority of cars available in 2009 – if insurance companies refuse to insure cars like the Z/28 or the insurance winds up costing more per month that the average payment, how many Z/28’s and their ilk will be sold (or continue to be produced)?
I’m not claiming to have an answer here…just thought I’d put this out for comments/see what some of you are thinking.
I wonder if I am the only one concerned that unless the manufacturers who are producing these vehicles (vehicles with 0-60 in the under 4 second mark and top speeds approaching 200MPH) steps in of their own accord with a plan; then either the federal government or the insurance industry, or both, will.
Let’s face it, the average driver in this country can barely manage to park between the lines and about the only emergency maneuver they can handle is to stand on the breaks and close their eyes…if they had to take a real performance driving course before getting behind the wheel 80% would flunk. And even though most, especially on boards like this, like to think of themselves as great drivers, most ARE average.
Were I GM and producing 500+HP Corvette or a 400+HP Camaro I’d have to be at least a little bit worried about a multi-Billion $ lawsuit when some “adult” is stupid enough to let his 17 year old drive his Z06…now we can all say that it’s the parent’s fault for being that stupid but we all know it happens or the 17 year old will take the car without permission and it’s probably only a matter of time before some crack pot decides to blame GM for his bad judgment or his late son’s stupidity.
And how long are the insurance companies going to stay out of it?
How anxious are they going to be to insure a Z/28 with 400+ HP and is so widely available to the public? It’s one thing to have that kind of HP available in cars at or over the six figure $ mark since relatively few can actually afford them but the Camaro will probably be priced right in with a majority of cars available in 2009 – if insurance companies refuse to insure cars like the Z/28 or the insurance winds up costing more per month that the average payment, how many Z/28’s and their ilk will be sold (or continue to be produced)?
I’m not claiming to have an answer here…just thought I’d put this out for comments/see what some of you are thinking.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 150
The three insurance companies I am familiar with all ask during the quote process whether or not you have taken a "defensive driving course". If you answer "Yes", and can prove it, you receive a rate reduction. The rate reduction is around 5% - 10% annually.
I asked reps from all 3 companies and they all said that high performance courses like Bondurant count as a "defensive driving course". As a driving "enthusiast" I wanted to verify that early on in the process.
I'm not sure how often you have to retake the course. If you have to recertify often, it won't make financial sense. However, if the course is good for several years a 5% reduction in rates on something like a Camaro will pay for a relatively inexpensive course quickly.
As a final note, you may want to check with local car clubs. Some of the driving courses they put on count as "defensive driving courses" for little money. For example the BMW Car Club routinely has autocross sessions, and some of them can be documented and presented to your agent. I'm sure you can find others if you look.
Have fun.
I asked reps from all 3 companies and they all said that high performance courses like Bondurant count as a "defensive driving course". As a driving "enthusiast" I wanted to verify that early on in the process.
I'm not sure how often you have to retake the course. If you have to recertify often, it won't make financial sense. However, if the course is good for several years a 5% reduction in rates on something like a Camaro will pay for a relatively inexpensive course quickly.
As a final note, you may want to check with local car clubs. Some of the driving courses they put on count as "defensive driving courses" for little money. For example the BMW Car Club routinely has autocross sessions, and some of them can be documented and presented to your agent. I'm sure you can find others if you look.
Have fun.
Registered User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 245
Well granted newer cars should handle better but the speed of the car or power is became alot more of a cost than some of us want. If power ran car sales than all the 67 through 69 would have been optioned as a copo or a baldwin-motion. but alot of 327 cars were sold. Alot of 305 powered pick ups where sold with a 305 even with a 350 as an option in the 70's and 80's. Someone mention only 10% of the buyers are hot rod motivated. I like power but a 5.3 would be fine for me.
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