View Poll Results: What concerns YOU more on the Camaro?
Voters: 179. You may not vote on this poll
What concerns you more? Cost or weight?
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
To add to the 2010 Mustang, I will also confirm that the new Mustang is going to be no joke. It would be at the Camaro owner's risk to not take it seriously.
Weight will be staying pretty close to the same, which I take to mean that live axle will continue in the volume versions (ie: GT), while IRS will be a part of the revised SVO version. The V8 will see a pretty significant increase in horsepower. Ford has been underrating engine output numbers in performance Mustangs since the Cobra debacle at the starte of the decade. Combine all of this with Ford's habit of aggressively gearing their V8 Mustangs, and the fact that "Team Mustang" has been in a take no prisoners mood and their itching for Camaro to return.
Make no mistake, this isn't the same group that held the the Mustang back in the 1990s.
Weight will be staying pretty close to the same, which I take to mean that live axle will continue in the volume versions (ie: GT), while IRS will be a part of the revised SVO version. The V8 will see a pretty significant increase in horsepower. Ford has been underrating engine output numbers in performance Mustangs since the Cobra debacle at the starte of the decade. Combine all of this with Ford's habit of aggressively gearing their V8 Mustangs, and the fact that "Team Mustang" has been in a take no prisoners mood and their itching for Camaro to return.
Make no mistake, this isn't the same group that held the the Mustang back in the 1990s.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,870
I really hope Ford brings their best efforts to market come 2010/11. Competition is always good for both parties.
As much as i bitch and moan about the rumored heft of the 5th gen, i look forward to cross-shopping it with the mustang. I'm as much a mustang/ford guy as i am a camaro/gm guy.
As much as i bitch and moan about the rumored heft of the 5th gen, i look forward to cross-shopping it with the mustang. I'm as much a mustang/ford guy as i am a camaro/gm guy.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Well I do grant, that I overlooked that thread. And my apologies if you are annoyed. But you should try to understand, it's also troubling to members here, when you make statements like this:
Annoying... indeed.
Originally Posted by Z284ever
The sad, sad, irony here, is that GM dictated that Camaro share an architecture with fullsized sedans in order to spread cost over several hundred thousand cars per year. But those sedans were cancelled, mainly because their heft would have adversly affected GM's CAFE numbers and consumer acceptance.
When all is said and done, Camaro essentially comes in, just as heavy as those cancelled sedans, with no other product to share costs with. Okay, maybe the DTS replacement might happen on Zeta, but that's it.
The result: Camaro is left holding about a quarter ton of excess baggage because it was yoked to a dead/dying large sedan architecture - a large sedan architecture, now with no sedans.
The money spent on Zeta, could have given Camaro it very own ponycar appropriate architecture. In fact, they might have even spun off a 'sensible for the times', fun-to-drive sedan or two from that. Hmmm. Something to think about.
I seriously doubt at this particular point in time, if a Zeta based Camaro is even all that economical to build for GM. Certainly, nowhere near the economies of scale projected for it. So, although GM no longer has the cost advantages of platform-sharing for Camaro, it does end up carrying the burden of all that weight as it's legacy.
When all is said and done, Camaro essentially comes in, just as heavy as those cancelled sedans, with no other product to share costs with. Okay, maybe the DTS replacement might happen on Zeta, but that's it.
The result: Camaro is left holding about a quarter ton of excess baggage because it was yoked to a dead/dying large sedan architecture - a large sedan architecture, now with no sedans.
The money spent on Zeta, could have given Camaro it very own ponycar appropriate architecture. In fact, they might have even spun off a 'sensible for the times', fun-to-drive sedan or two from that. Hmmm. Something to think about.
I seriously doubt at this particular point in time, if a Zeta based Camaro is even all that economical to build for GM. Certainly, nowhere near the economies of scale projected for it. So, although GM no longer has the cost advantages of platform-sharing for Camaro, it does end up carrying the burden of all that weight as it's legacy.
Annoying... indeed.
I stand by every single word of that....
Last edited by Z284ever; Jul 6, 2008 at 10:35 PM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
The G8 and VXR8 are Commodores and are built by Holden in Australia on the original VE/Zeta architecture. The Camaro will be built on the refreshed version of Zeta in Oshawa. So far all of it's siblings have been cancelled, with perhaps only the DTS replacement remaining.
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
I'll simply leave with these thoughts directed only towards the handling portion of our program...
Only if you think they aren't actually educational.
I know of no more relevant or easily accessible test of a car's agility and handling than stock class autocross competition. Much like most real world situations, the speeds generally don't exceed 70 mph and the surfaces are seldom perfect. Mods are extremely minimal. Wheel sizes must remain stock and the only allowable suspension/chassis modifications are shocks and a front bar (which most everyone in the class changes).
The current crop of Mustangs is laying waste to the Camaros and Firebirds (SS, WS6 cars included) despite still having something of a power deficit.
When the new Mustang was found to be a better choice than Camaro / Firebird, national level competitors went out and bought them in droves. The car now dominates the class. If the new Camaro really is going to shame lighter cars with it's handling prowess, we will see a widespread return to Camaro.
This will be an extremely fair test as the cars run at the same time and are driven by very motivated drivers under the same conditions. The top drivers are very consistent and comparable to each other at this level.
If the Mustang continues it's rampage through the class into the upcoming model change/freshening, I guess those concerned with weight were right.
If the Camaro becomes the car to have, I guess they were wrong.
We'll see soon enough. For the record, I'd love to be wrong.
Only if you think they aren't actually educational.
I know of no more relevant or easily accessible test of a car's agility and handling than stock class autocross competition. Much like most real world situations, the speeds generally don't exceed 70 mph and the surfaces are seldom perfect. Mods are extremely minimal. Wheel sizes must remain stock and the only allowable suspension/chassis modifications are shocks and a front bar (which most everyone in the class changes).
The current crop of Mustangs is laying waste to the Camaros and Firebirds (SS, WS6 cars included) despite still having something of a power deficit.
When the new Mustang was found to be a better choice than Camaro / Firebird, national level competitors went out and bought them in droves. The car now dominates the class. If the new Camaro really is going to shame lighter cars with it's handling prowess, we will see a widespread return to Camaro.
This will be an extremely fair test as the cars run at the same time and are driven by very motivated drivers under the same conditions. The top drivers are very consistent and comparable to each other at this level.
If the Mustang continues it's rampage through the class into the upcoming model change/freshening, I guess those concerned with weight were right.
If the Camaro becomes the car to have, I guess they were wrong.
We'll see soon enough. For the record, I'd love to be wrong.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
It's not a bias. It's called being informed. You would be too if you ever bothered to venture out from cz28. There are other pony car websites you know.
Fourcam and BlueOval, 2 well known Mustang Insiders who were responsible for giving us practically the entire blueprints for the GT500 in 2005 (2 years before the damned thing was announced) have let it "Slip" that the 2011 Mustang GT is going to be over 400+ hp (current estimates are putting it around 430 since it's believed the 400hp is underrated from Ford) with 360+ pounds of torque. It IS going to weigh below 3500. The only thing they haven't confirmed at this point is if it's going to be a Watts link SLA or a carryover from the S197.
Fourcam and BlueOval, 2 well known Mustang Insiders who were responsible for giving us practically the entire blueprints for the GT500 in 2005 (2 years before the damned thing was announced) have let it "Slip" that the 2011 Mustang GT is going to be over 400+ hp (current estimates are putting it around 430 since it's believed the 400hp is underrated from Ford) with 360+ pounds of torque. It IS going to weigh below 3500. The only thing they haven't confirmed at this point is if it's going to be a Watts link SLA or a carryover from the S197.
We should all keep in mind that estimates don't always turn into fact. Which is not to say that I think it will be heavier, but we shouldn't bank on it just yet.
Maybe a special lightweight edition for racers/autoX?
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Welcome aboard!
The G8 and VXR8 are Commodores and are built by Holden in Australia on the original VE/Zeta architecture. The Camaro will be built on the refreshed version of Zeta in Oshawa. So far all of it's siblings have been cancelled, with perhaps only the DTS replacement remaining.
The G8 and VXR8 are Commodores and are built by Holden in Australia on the original VE/Zeta architecture. The Camaro will be built on the refreshed version of Zeta in Oshawa. So far all of it's siblings have been cancelled, with perhaps only the DTS replacement remaining.
Making it a different car from the point of view of manufacturing economies of scale, though there must still be significant savings in design/development from sharing with AU?
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,139
From: Commerce, mi, USA
I'll make a general note about the next Mustang folks. I like Mustangs. I cross-shopped them when I was looking for my GTO a few years back. The 05+ has been a huge success for Ford, and is a gorgeous car.
Understand if I have a little skepticism about these wonderful claims out now for the next Mustang. I hope it is a great performer, and agree it will be nice if it's just 35xx pounds with a V8. But if that means doing without an IRS... well no thanks. In fact that was one reason I didn't have a lot of trouble letting go of my 95 Formula a while back... it's just brutal dealing day-to-day on real roads, with a heavy solid rear axle.
As for power... I clearly recall the 99 Cobra fiasco... and that's another reason I want to see a real 2011 Mustang and its specs before believing about it.
Understand if I have a little skepticism about these wonderful claims out now for the next Mustang. I hope it is a great performer, and agree it will be nice if it's just 35xx pounds with a V8. But if that means doing without an IRS... well no thanks. In fact that was one reason I didn't have a lot of trouble letting go of my 95 Formula a while back... it's just brutal dealing day-to-day on real roads, with a heavy solid rear axle.
As for power... I clearly recall the 99 Cobra fiasco... and that's another reason I want to see a real 2011 Mustang and its specs before believing about it.
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 859
From: AR (PA born and fled)
*EDIT* I see what you're getting at now. No, I feel it'd be a waste of time because it would only lead to more public bickering with those who have little first hand knowledge or erroneous preconceptions of the matter.
Short answer, it depends.
Some venues like the current location of the national finals (Heartland Park) are very smooth. Others are very bumpy. Some have a surprising amount of elevation change.
Some have reasonably grippy asphalt. Some (like HPT) have asphalt that favors a car with a compliant setup. You need to "make grip" with the car and not rely entirely on the tire. I've run HPT several times. It literally feels like I can't get into the pavement with the tires. It feels like I'm riding on top of it. Very odd. Other venues have grippy concrete where a stiffer setup could be used.
I'm limiting my observations to national sites, not regionals.
Short answer, it depends.
Some venues like the current location of the national finals (Heartland Park) are very smooth. Others are very bumpy. Some have a surprising amount of elevation change.
Some have reasonably grippy asphalt. Some (like HPT) have asphalt that favors a car with a compliant setup. You need to "make grip" with the car and not rely entirely on the tire. I've run HPT several times. It literally feels like I can't get into the pavement with the tires. It feels like I'm riding on top of it. Very odd. Other venues have grippy concrete where a stiffer setup could be used.
I'm limiting my observations to national sites, not regionals.
Last edited by Chewbacca; Jul 7, 2008 at 12:21 PM. Reason: I'm dumb
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
I don't feel comfortable giving exact numbers, but suffice it to say that I was very satisfied with those 'targets'.
I was also told by others, early on, that those targets would never be met - not even close. I foolishly held out hope though.
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Ford has done so many things since '99 to negate that fiasco that I really wouldn't call this an issue anymore. Heck, the 2003 Cobra should have pretty much wiped that out.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,870
Agreed. Just about every performance car from Ford after the 99 fiasco has been underrated if anything. The issue with the 99 Cobra's was a BIG embarrassment for Ford and the last thing Ford wants is anything close to a repeat. I'd even go as far to as expect the next Mustang GT to put out more than its ratings (if slightly) just for extra measure.