Oh. Okay Big. I'll take my ball and go home. NOT!

It sounds like you'd like to institute a gag order or something.
I'm sure you'd prefer a pompous, self-congratulatory discussion where little to no opinions are exchanged.

No need to storm GM. This here is already a done deal. Nothing can or will change it. I've known this "unknown weight" for awhile now. I had some illusions earlier on, that somehow, this weight train wreck could be avoided. Nope, not a chance.

And Big, I know you'll be comforted by the fact that I have moved on. Lemme see.... the money I had reserved for the purchase of this car(s) will be spent elsewhere, I'm actively looking to purchase something else and I've essentially stopped using my GM Card.

So there ya go - don't worry about me, bro.

But I'm still going to Indy with my boys, hopefully in my "new" Camaro. Perhaps I'll get some "I'M NOT IN THE MARKET FOR A TWO TON CAMARO" T-shirts made?

Who's in?

 

Taking a page from your playbook....

How do we know this?
Has GM publicly released the official specs yet?
Has an objective tester driven a production vehicle and made his findings known?
Has there been some comparison test we are unaware of?
What criteria do you consider to be part of handling?
What are the buyer's expectations?
What lighter cars is it going to shame and in what way?



I can't believe I'm wasting my time asking this...

 

Me neither. Especially, since in your haste to quote just some of my words, you left out a key part: I BELIEVE. I'm not making a claim based on manufacturer's specs. I'm simply operating on faith. (I know, that is hard for some ). Why? I've witnessed the previous Camaros that came before. The original Z/28... the IROC-Z... and the LS1 SS come to mind. That's enough proof for me, and the other faithful Camaro fans who are waiting patiently for the next edition

 

I'm all for having interesting discussion and debate. It just gets to be kind of a bore though, when a small minority keep bringing up their one pet peeve over and over, and nothing new is covered. We all get it now... you don't like the car's weight (as you supposedly know it, from your enlightened perch in the world of concrete, known 2010 Camaro facts ). But you see, there are a lot of us here who do not want to keep encountering this same refrain. The majority of us, are willing to wait and see. We want to look at published specs - mag reviews - and most importantly have a real test drive in a real 2010 Camaro. If you/your crew of new-Camaro-scorners have already made up your mind, fine... but it's not fun for the rest of us to continue to endure the rants of a cynical few.
You will have 'moved on' when you stop repeating your curb weight laments ad nauseum.
Might as well use the back side of the shirt for something too. Here's some suggested text: "KICK ME. I'VE ALSO RESIGNED MYSELF TO NEVER ENJOY A DODGE CHALLENGER SRT8... A MUSTANG GT500... A CHRYSLER 300C SRT8... OR A CADILLAC CTS-V"

Here's a picture for your t-shirt's graphics

 

Right. And there are others who BELIEVE differently. There are others who have faith in physics and their own experience.

Have you not called their beliefs into question and more than once insinuated that they are wrong by repeating your mantra "There have been no official specs or test results released"?


You didn't answer three of my questions which have nothing to do with specs and everything to do with your beliefs:

What criteria do you consider to be part of handling?
What are the buyer's expectations?
What lighter cars is it going to shame and in what way?

I think those are fair follow up questions to your statement of personal belief.

 

don't waste your time. let history sort him out.

 

Oh really? That's not true and I'm pretty sure you know it. I would enjoy driving ALL of those cars. I wouldn't spend my own money on a GT500 for example, since I consider it a ponycar pretender. If someone threw me the keys to one, I'd have abit of fun, but know it's not something I'd want to buy.

I enjoy my CTS everyday, the only regret is that I didn't pop for a CTS-V in order to reserve my funds for a 5th gen Z/28. I'm actively looking to rectify that now, in my search for a mint, low miles V for me to enjoy.

In the meantime, I'll enjoy the Camaros a I do have. In fact I'm working on one of them right now. Better get back out there. See ya!

 

I've stayed off of this thread because in the very little time I have to spend on the internet these days, I find the continued debate on the Camaros weight.... to be honest.... pretty silly and time wasting.

The new Camaro's a done deal. It's not going to change. As mentioned above, you aren't going to get a group of people and put GM's headquarters under seige until they agree to magically chop off hundreds of pounds from the Camaro.

I use the word silly for many reasons.

1. If you want RWD and IRS, it's going to increase weight. Period.
2. You want 400+ horsepower, it's going to add weight.
3. You want all the creature comforts, it's going to add weight.
4. You want world class braking & handling numbers it's going to add weight.
5 You do all this on a affordable chassis, don't expect it to be a featherweight.
6. Finally, cost and weight is going to have to be balenced to achieve volume.


There is no magic pill for weight when the subject is a 400 to 500 horsepower rear drive automobile that's twisting over 400 pounds feet of torque through a independent rear suspension in which by it's very nature is not only heavier than a live axle, but also has a tendancy (that needs to be overcome) to hop like a cat on a hot tin roof and risk self destruction whenever all that torque and horsepower go through it from a dead stop. If there was a magic pill for that, some automanufacturer residing on the planet earth would have found a way to make all this live in harmony. They haven't.

The current V8 powered Ford Mustang GT is still around 3500 pounds as was the 4th gen Camaro. But do you want a live axle?

If you want something that would weigh 3200 pounds with a V6 or 3500 pounds with a V8, then you can spring 30K+ for a Cobalt sized BMW 3 series 6 cylinder or 54K for an M3. That's the only game in town. And don't get into a minor front end accident with that 3 series because that aluminum front substructure is hyperexpensive to repair (and usually is enough to total the entire car).

A G37 coupe weighs 3700 pounds... with a V6.
The Hyundai Genisis coupe weighs just under 3600 pounds... again with a V6.
6 cylinder Mercedes CLK coupe? just a hair under 3600 pounds.

The common thread in all these cars, besides RWD & IRS?

They all are V6s and smaller than a Malibu.

The new Camaro by the account of everyone here who has ridden in it has been extremely positive. The people who have actually driven it love it. It's been tuned on the Nurburgring racetrack of all places. It's chassis is the most sophisticated car outside of the current Corvette GM has ever made.

GM did an outstanding job with the new Camaro by every account of those who actually have had a hands-on with the thing. The Camaro is far better made, quicker, faster, handles with the best on the planet, AND gets superior fuel economy compared with other vehicles with the same power levels and the same configuration and suspension layout.

It doesn't weight 4000 pounds.

It isn't a pig.

GM's engineers weren't being lazy.

You aren't going to re-engineer physics.

You can't make titaium cheeper.

No one is going to storm GM over the Camaro's weight.

Weight isn't going to trump fuel economy and performance to 99% of regular buyers and enthusiasts.... especially if they test drive the thing and come away as impresses as everyone else seems to have come away.

Perhaps it's time to start talking about the 6th gen Camaro regarding what we're ready to give up to bring weight down, because all we're doing here is revving our engine in neutral. We're making alot of noise, but we're using up alot of fuel, producing alot of hot air, and going nowhere for the effort.

 

Won't that CTS-V, depending on equipment weigh just about the same as the Camaro SS, have less power, and suffer from wheel hop?

Is it something about the four doors that makes the weight more palatable?

Btw, if considering a CTS-V, why not a G8 GXP? More power, a little more weight (150 pounds maybe), more room, more modern, less $$$?

Btw2, there were leftover CTS-Vs still available a few months ago -- I'm thinking somewhere in the country, there's probably one that's never been titled.

 

Makes sense -- best do that in another thread, I suppose.

As an aside I don't think a few inches of legroom either way in the back seat is really going to add or subtract a lot of weight. I think there's been way too much effort expended arguing about the back seat, and I share in the guilt

 

I think you've asked me that before - who knows, maybe even in this monster thread.

The CTS-V doesn't pretend to be a ponycar. It's a 5 passenger, 4 door Cadillac performance sedan. One which will weigh less than any comparably equipped (if that's possible), 5th gen V8 Camaro. It has greater structural rigidity, a superior front suspension and really strong brakes. If the G8 GT with the 19" wheel performance package is any sort of benchmark, a CTS-V(1) should outhandle the Camaro SS, maybe even by a good margin. Anyway, as you know my plan was to buy a Z/28, not an SS. And the Z/28 will weigh even more than the porkalicious SS. That's a complete and utter travesty in my book.

I might consider a GXP - but let me tell you, it had better feel alot lighter on it's feet than the GT did. Let me add that the GT was a nice car, but if the Camaro feels anything like that.....well let's just say that's not what I'm looking for.

Yeah, I know afew months ago there were some untitled CTS-V's. That would be sweet to find one now. I could use the GM points I've been acruing for the Camaro and get a full 4 year warranty.

There's one in the San Francisco area, an '07 untitled. I've already spoken to them, but it's the wrong color and I'm not spending a couple of grand to ship it. Plus I'd like to check it out personally and work a deal with my '06 CTS as a trade in.

 

Well let's get cracking dude! Start the thread, I'll be all over it.

 

I know you had your heart set on a Z/28. I just figured a Camaro SS was closer to what you wanted than a CTS-V.

It's probably a mistake to assume that a Camaro SS will handle like a G8 GT. The Camaro SS should be quite a bit sportier. I doubt it will ride as well, but I doubt you care

IIRC, they were 10K off of MSRP, though it may have only be 6 or 7K. Nothing with a V8 is moving real well these days....

 

Thanks guionM, for your logical and insightful post. Amen and 100% agreed.

 

I imagine so. But it is a fact, no specs or test results are out there for the car. So if I'm pointing out that such folk have no actual factual numbers to stand on, I think I'm on pretty solid ground.

Fine. Criteria for handling? Mine are simple - taking curves, good steering, braking, and handling bumps with grace. While the spec's aren't out, I believe (there's that phrase you will likely ignore again) that based on other recent successes like the C6 Z06 and Cobalt SS, the new Camaro will have all this in spades.

Buyer's expectations? They expect the Camaro to be a great performance value. They expect it to have magnificent styling (clearly it does). They expect world-class quality, hence the careful development, test and production ramp-up Chevy is following. They expect all the modern safety equipment and capabilities - like GM's OnStar, stability control and multiple airbags. They expect excellent performance, like was found with the many unforgettable Camaros already sold, not Ferrari-like but certainly equal or better than Camaro's peers in its price segment.

What cars will it shame? That's easy. Every wannabe-sporty import like the Mazda RX8 (with a whopping 159 ft lb torque)... the Honda Civic... and the BMW 1-series which is comically overpriced. Cars like the Mazda, it will shame with its power and torque... cars like the Civic, it will shame with its unmistakeable standout styling... and cars like the ridiculous BMW '1', it will shame with its vastly superior value proposition