So either a mid-200 hp V6 or a 400 hp V8??? That's a pretty big gap.

 

Well, if the its a two model run and they bring a 400hp V8 to the table for the same entry price as a GT, what is there to bitch about? If your a speed junky, nothing. Now if they do a two model run and the top knocker f-bod runs an LS2 and cost the same as a cobra and your choice is either a slooooooooooowwwwwwwww sub 20k V6 or a 30k plus V8, yeah there would be much to get crappy about. It makes sense and would be nice if there is a three tier scheme, but you guys will have to wait and see?

However, that begs the question, what if GM introduces a 2 car line up at launch and its a V6 with like 250 hp (just illustrative since I niether care to look or give a damn about what the generals V6 line up is) and they introduce a 325 or 350 hp V8 at the same or lighter weight as its competitor (but at a better price point)? Are you guys gonna give it the thumbs down and snub it. Cause I can reasonably assure you, that a 300hp 300+ cid V8 Camaro with an identical body weight using about the same gearing with about the same amount of power absorbtion from the drivetrain will out accelerate a mustang with a 300hp 281 cid V8 (hint; there aint no replacment for displacement).

Or what if a new f-body only edges out the mustang in every catagory except price (where it soundly defeats it), does that make it a bad car or unworthy of the camaro name? Or how bout if the mustang is just that good and it would be impossible to improve the performance without adding substantially to the cost of the car, does that make it a bad car and an unworthy sucessor?

 

Here's a thought, all this talk about LS2. Just suppose, what if they skipped that step altogether and just went w/ a v6, and then a 5.3 or whatever they have then as a GT competitor, then skipped over the LS2, and offered the 6.2 or s/c 6.2, or LS7, or whatever as the engine for the top model(s)?

V6 is competitive w/ mustang
5.3 is competitive w/ 4.6 GT
TDC engine is competitive w/ Cobra

GTO and whatever big coupes and sedans, along with Corvette, gets the 6.0 standard, but Camaro has the nuclear weapon as an option.

 

By the time the car gets here numerous scenarios could take place. Just as long as the Z28 can give the top M*stang a run for it's money by any means necessary, I'll be cool.

 

I think this may be likely, as all of the talk of an 6.2 ls3 replacing the ls2 in the vette would likely happen around the same time our top dog Camaro actually hit the market place.

If a 5.3 is used in the base, I would sincerely hope it is making over 300hp. Just enough is to outaccelerate is the Mustang is not good enough, especially since we have had f-bodies making 350hp in stock trim since 1998. I would expect no less than 350hp, at the very least, from a base v8. I do not want to see the 4th gens out accelerating the 5th gens. Plus, if the 5th gen runs the IRS, there wont be the same amount of drivetrain absorbtion, the 5th gen will have more. And if it weighs slightly more, that isn't helping the cause any either. GM's engines easily have the capability of making much more horsepower for the dollar then Ford's modular engines, so I don't understand why some people would want to settle for less.

 

Who cares if the 4th gen is faster than a 5th gen. Nobody cared how fast they were when they were brand new, so why does it suddenly matter now? 350hp fbodies got their asses handed to them by 225hp 15 second 1998 mustangs (at least in the only number that matters - sales)

I'm sure they will have 400hp + top dog camaro, but i don't understand why anybody has any angst about a base V8 camaro that might only have ~300hp. The base camaro doesn't have to be faster than anything to be a sales success because noone buys a car based on what it beats in a race (except enthusiasts who make up an irrelevent section of the market). Engines in boxes don't sell.

 

I will care, as will just about every other Camaro enthusiast out there. Its not like having a faster Camaro is going to hurt sales. Alot of the reason I gave the fbody a try is because of how much faster I heard it was than a Mustang, and I am not the only person I know who owns one that feels the same. Enthusiasts may be the minority, but we also tend to have the loudest voices.

I still can't believe how against performance some people are on a Camaro website. Especially when the hp increase in question would very likely have little effect on the MSRP of the car. Many of you seem so brainwashed by this "engines in a box" mantra on this website it is disturbing. No kidding engines in a box don't sell, we have plenty of evidence to back that up. Do you really think the 5th gen is just going to be a box though? Why not put a great engine, in a nice car?

 

Actually, the horsepower numbers did hurt sales in a way. Some people don't care for the ultimate in power, but they want something that is sorta fast and fun. When comparing between the Mustang and the F-car, 300+ horsepower turned people toward the Mustang because to them, 300+ was overkill and more than they needed or more than they felt they could control. The 200 or so the Mustang had was "good enough". Sale for Ford, no sale for GM.

Of course, some opted for the V6 F-car at that point which was comparible in power to a base V8 Mustang, but only if they weren't set on having that nice V8, which was rare.

 

I'm not anti-performance. I still think and whole-heartedly believe the top camaro will have plenty of HP. I'm able to seperate my enthusiast side from my practical side though and know that HP doesn't sell cars

Since mustang sold circles around fbody despite giving up over 100 actual hp in 1998 and 90hp in later years, i'm pretty sure i'm on the right track. Also, the fact that nissan/infiniti are having decent success selling ~275hp sporty cars, or how about the anemic RX8, or 340hp chargers that weigh as much as a full size pick-up truck and perform like one too.

Noone is saying make the 5th gen a turtle. Just understand, John Q public couldn't give less of a **** if he's +/- a fender on a mustang GT since John Q public would never actually street race or take it to the track anyway.

 

Well, I think GM would be smart if they offered a bit more of a range of horsepower numbers... Maybe more than just two engine choices.

Wouldn't that be great?

 

How many people that actually buy Pony cars for the fun factor know what horsepower actually is. In the real world, I have never heard of anyone complaining that a car has too much horsepower versus its competitors. I still don't see that as a viable arguement for purposely building a weaker v8 motor. I am sure there are people that feel over 300 hp is too much, but I really doubt this is the norm. If people were only satisfied with "just enough" power, would they be selling Hemis in the LX cars like they do? Doubtful. If 200 hp is good enough, why bother releasing a 250 hp v6 in the base Camaro?

Styling is definetly the number one thing that sells a vehicle to the public. But I would not disregard power as something that helps sell a vehicle. The more powerful 400 hp GTO is having no problems selling with few discounts, while the 350 hp GTO sat on the lots.

 

Many of the above cars are selling based off their styling. My sister doesn't even know what a rotary engine is, but she said she likes the Rx8, because of the way it looks. A no brainer there. John Q Public may not street race, but many John Qs brag, and it is hard to have bragging rights when there is nothing to brag about. How may Vette/Porsche owners have you heard brag about some area or another of their cars, even though they never race them. I know have heard more then a few.
All I am trying to say is that styling is definetly the number one thing that sells a car, as we have seen in the past in the marketplace, and will continue to see into the future. I just think it would be inexcusable for GM to put anything less than a 350hp v8 in the base v8 car. I would be completely turned off by a new Camaro that only ran .1 second quicker through the 1/4 than a Mustang, especially knowing that GM has the reserves to easily outgun the Ford engines.
I still stand by my statement that to say HP doesn't help sell performance cars is ignorant.

 

Well, you gotta remember that everyone's definition of "enough" horsepower is different.

It happened, believe me. It was especially common among female dbuyers. No stereotype implied, just the facts there. 300 hp scared many people away. 200 was more withing their comfort zone.

More sales because the buyer has more of a choice both power-wise and finance-wise.

Not the norm, but definitely a factor.

Have you really looked at those Hemi sales numbers? I haven't myself but I was told they are not as good when the numbers get added up. I need to see if I can dig those up....

But anyway, we are not talking about now, we are talking about back in the mid-late 90s or so when it was noticed more and when f-body sales were crucial. This was when when the Mustang had not much more than 200 hp base and the f-body had 100 more. You gotta look at the broader spectrum. The the LS1 f-body was still being made, those Hemis were barely out, if at all.

Right, and the horsepower problem was not the number one sales deterrant, but once again, definitely a factor. Those Hemi cars are not aggressive muscle cars, they are more of a luxury vehicle. The power is preceived differently. In a Camaro, 350hp is loud, rough and aggressive. In a sedan, it is refined for passing power, cruising speed, etc. etc.

Compare that to Mustang sales with less horsepower than both GTOs.

And those older GTOs sat only because it was leaked that the LS2 would be in the new GTO, so everyone who wanted a GTO waited for that.

 

Yeah, I agree on that one. As I said, in my previous post, times have changed and power is up across the boards so everyone is used to 300+.

I still say that it would be great for there to be a base V8 and then later on, an "***-kicker" V8...

That is hard to argue against but is not always a factor...only most of the time.

 

The 3.9 Will Be Nice For The Ladies, The 5.3l ( Which Is What Is In My 01 Tahoe) Is A Great Little Engine. It Pulls My Tahoe And My Kids Around Just Fine. More Than Likely It Will Be The 6.0 In The Top Dog For The First Year. As For Me I'll Buy The 5.3, Throw 5k At It, And Crush The Cobra's.

Benny____________
1986 Z28
388 Stroker@425hp, Built T5, Richmond 373's, Eaton Locker
All New Front And Rear Suspension, Lowered 1 Inch All Around
Great Daily Driver