No Firebird For The Future
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
You sure about that Guy? Because the turbo block didn't even exist in '79. Anyway, just going off memory, I thought the 301 block was around 60 lbs(?) lighter than the 400, due to thinner wall casting and shorter block deck height.
There was a "handling shootout" done by I think, C&D in 1979. Maybe someone can find the story. C&D let each manufacturer spec out the cars EXACTLY how they wanted, for best handling. Chevy delivered an L-82 Corvette with the Gymkana suspension. Ford delivered a Mustang GT with the TRX. Pontiac sent a WS6 Trans Am with a 4.9, (rather than a 6.6), specifically for the handling advantage that reduced weight over the nose would give.
The Trans Am won BTW, besting even the Gymkana Corvette.
There was a "handling shootout" done by I think, C&D in 1979. Maybe someone can find the story. C&D let each manufacturer spec out the cars EXACTLY how they wanted, for best handling. Chevy delivered an L-82 Corvette with the Gymkana suspension. Ford delivered a Mustang GT with the TRX. Pontiac sent a WS6 Trans Am with a 4.9, (rather than a 6.6), specifically for the handling advantage that reduced weight over the nose would give.
The Trans Am won BTW, besting even the Gymkana Corvette.
Last edited by Z284ever; Jan 20, 2007 at 03:07 PM.
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
The turbo 4.9L/301 had a much smaller intake, exhaust manifolds, crank, pistons, heads, valves etc. than a 400...the 400 is much heavier at over 640#.
Some more #'s:
Pontiac slant 4: 470#'s
Pontiac SOHC 6 450#'s
Pontiac 389 V8 650#'s
Pontiac 301 V8 451#'s
Engines CID-Version Code VIN Code Trans HP@RPM Torque @RPM
4.9L YN, XN W 3A 150@4400 235@1800
4.9L Turbo YL T 3A 210@4000 345@2000
5.0L CEL, CEM H 3A 145@3600 240@2000
I owned a 400 Firebird, and my cousin Becky owned an Blue '80 Turbo 301 T/A, I repaired and modded both...there's a pretty big difference.
It did one leg burnouts fairly easily, you just had to power brake it to build some boost first. Mid range pulled fairly hard, gave my 400 a good run.
The N/A versions were fairly weak, with intake ports you could plug with your thumb, it's not hard to see why...
And 400's could rev much quicker and higher than a 455, and could easily make more HP, especially modded. But the 455 was the torque King!, spinning one over 5000 was like playing Russian Roulette tho...
Some more #'s:
Pontiac slant 4: 470#'s
Pontiac SOHC 6 450#'s
Pontiac 389 V8 650#'s
Pontiac 301 V8 451#'s
Engines CID-Version Code VIN Code Trans HP@RPM Torque @RPM
4.9L YN, XN W 3A 150@4400 235@1800
4.9L Turbo YL T 3A 210@4000 345@2000
5.0L CEL, CEM H 3A 145@3600 240@2000
August 2000 issue of High Performance Pontiac magazine:
"the 301T was an attempt to balance economy and performance. We know that the turbo and the four-barrel give the performance side of the story, but what about economy? Weight reduction is an effective method to better both performance and economy, and this was a major focus of 301 development. Its lower deck and thinner cylinder walls allowed for a 61 lb weight reduction of the block compared to the 350 block; two counterweights instead of four on the crankshaft give a 24 lb advantage; cylinder heads weigh 16 lbs less in comparison; the intake manifold is 19 lbs lighter, etc. If you were to add up all of the weight savings, you'd come out with an impressively-light engine"
"the 301T was an attempt to balance economy and performance. We know that the turbo and the four-barrel give the performance side of the story, but what about economy? Weight reduction is an effective method to better both performance and economy, and this was a major focus of 301 development. Its lower deck and thinner cylinder walls allowed for a 61 lb weight reduction of the block compared to the 350 block; two counterweights instead of four on the crankshaft give a 24 lb advantage; cylinder heads weigh 16 lbs less in comparison; the intake manifold is 19 lbs lighter, etc. If you were to add up all of the weight savings, you'd come out with an impressively-light engine"
It did one leg burnouts fairly easily, you just had to power brake it to build some boost first. Mid range pulled fairly hard, gave my 400 a good run.
The N/A versions were fairly weak, with intake ports you could plug with your thumb, it's not hard to see why...
And 400's could rev much quicker and higher than a 455, and could easily make more HP, especially modded. But the 455 was the torque King!, spinning one over 5000 was like playing Russian Roulette tho...
Last edited by 90rocz; Jan 21, 2007 at 12:59 AM.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/...-200612-000014
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,224
From: CNY
I would think that the car is worth more than $17,500.
That car, with those miles, in that condition; I would think the value should be around $22K.
And there was just a good write-up in the latest High Performance Pontiac about 301s. If I get the ambition, I will type it in. Otherwise, check it out at the newsstand.
PS. My brother has an '80 Turbo T/A WS6. Car handles like it's on rails, but rides like there is no suspension under it.
He blew the 301 turbo and we put a 400 in it. But we saved the 301. I'd like to rebuild the 301 and put it back in, but he's got other priorities right now.
That car, with those miles, in that condition; I would think the value should be around $22K.
And there was just a good write-up in the latest High Performance Pontiac about 301s. If I get the ambition, I will type it in. Otherwise, check it out at the newsstand.
PS. My brother has an '80 Turbo T/A WS6. Car handles like it's on rails, but rides like there is no suspension under it.
He blew the 301 turbo and we put a 400 in it. But we saved the 301. I'd like to rebuild the 301 and put it back in, but he's got other priorities right now.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,224
From: CNY
Apparently, you CAN bolt on a real set of Pontiac heads.
BUT (and it's a big but), you'd have to EXTENSIVELY modify a non-301 intake or fabricate a whole new one as the dimension between the heads will be a lot less than a non-301 Pontiac (due to the shorter deck height).
From what this latest HPP article said, the biggest things holding back the 301were the heads & intake. They have shared runners that promote economy rather than performance.
It would be interesting if you could find an intake from one of the 303 short deck Pontiac engines from the early '70s. This was the engine that Pontiac wanted to run in the Trans Am series. It was a short deck 400. I don't know if the deck height on the 303 was the same as the 301. If it was, and you could actually find a 303 intake for sale, AND you actually afford it, then it would be theoretically possible to build a pretty nice 301.
BUT (and it's a big but), you'd have to EXTENSIVELY modify a non-301 intake or fabricate a whole new one as the dimension between the heads will be a lot less than a non-301 Pontiac (due to the shorter deck height).
From what this latest HPP article said, the biggest things holding back the 301were the heads & intake. They have shared runners that promote economy rather than performance.
It would be interesting if you could find an intake from one of the 303 short deck Pontiac engines from the early '70s. This was the engine that Pontiac wanted to run in the Trans Am series. It was a short deck 400. I don't know if the deck height on the 303 was the same as the 301. If it was, and you could actually find a 303 intake for sale, AND you actually afford it, then it would be theoretically possible to build a pretty nice 301.
Last edited by HuJass; Jan 22, 2007 at 11:19 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Apparently, you CAN bolt on a real set of Pontiac heads.
BUT (and it's a big but), you'd have to EXTENSIVELY modify a non-301 intake or fabricate a whole new one as the dimension between the heads will be a lot less than a non-301 Pontiac (due to the shorter deck height).
From what this latest HPP article said, the biggest things holding back the 301were the heads & intake. They have shared runners that promote economy rather than performance.
It would be interesting if you could find an intake from one of the 303 short deck Pontiac engines from the early '70s. This was the engine that Pontiac wanted to run in the Trans Am series. It was a short deck 400. I don't know if the deck height on the 303 was the same as the 301. If it was, and you could actually find a 303 intake for sale, AND you actually afford it, then it would be theoretically possible to build a pretty nice 301.
BUT (and it's a big but), you'd have to EXTENSIVELY modify a non-301 intake or fabricate a whole new one as the dimension between the heads will be a lot less than a non-301 Pontiac (due to the shorter deck height).
From what this latest HPP article said, the biggest things holding back the 301were the heads & intake. They have shared runners that promote economy rather than performance.
It would be interesting if you could find an intake from one of the 303 short deck Pontiac engines from the early '70s. This was the engine that Pontiac wanted to run in the Trans Am series. It was a short deck 400. I don't know if the deck height on the 303 was the same as the 301. If it was, and you could actually find a 303 intake for sale, AND you actually afford it, then it would be theoretically possible to build a pretty nice 301.
Pity.
Not sure about the 303/301 part though.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,224
From: CNY
Nunzi is a legendary Pontiac guy. It's too bad he didn't release that intake.
On the 303 issue, I was looking in to the engines a bit further. It seems the earlier 303s utilized the Ram Air V tunnel port heads. Not exactly a street head. So in order to use that manifold, you'd have to score the manifold AND a set of RAV heads. And then it wouldn't be a street friendly engine.
Later on, it seems they switched to the RAIV heads for the 303. So there is another manifold you'd have to find. RAIV heads (or copies) can be had kinda readily. But it still wouldn't build any power down low.
So, the best idea, in my mind, is to put a set of regular Pontiac heads on it and customize a regular intake. I wonder if you could cut the mounting flanges off the intake, grind back the runners, and TIG the flanges back on. The runner geometry probably wouldn't allow that. So a sheet metal intake is your best bet.
On the 303 issue, I was looking in to the engines a bit further. It seems the earlier 303s utilized the Ram Air V tunnel port heads. Not exactly a street head. So in order to use that manifold, you'd have to score the manifold AND a set of RAV heads. And then it wouldn't be a street friendly engine.
Later on, it seems they switched to the RAIV heads for the 303. So there is another manifold you'd have to find. RAIV heads (or copies) can be had kinda readily. But it still wouldn't build any power down low.
So, the best idea, in my mind, is to put a set of regular Pontiac heads on it and customize a regular intake. I wonder if you could cut the mounting flanges off the intake, grind back the runners, and TIG the flanges back on. The runner geometry probably wouldn't allow that. So a sheet metal intake is your best bet.
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