1. There was no deal with the Devil. GM is as free to use the Firebird name again as they are Camaro. Issue is product overlap.

2. Ws6 is an option package on Trans Am.

3. Trans Am name is owned by someone else.

4. The Judge was a failed GTO model (that gained popularity much later in it's rareity), and therefore would make no sense as a stand alone name if that's what you're advocating. GTO is a name that has great vailue an equity. To not use it again would be IMHO completely stupid.

The last GTO won over every critic who actually drove it, including hard core GTO fans. There isn't one single insult hurled at the last GTO that wasn't hurled at the "softer styled" '68 Tempest GTOs (which includes your "Judge") that drew intense criticism from GTO faithful back them.

The last GTO was the fastest accelerating, highest top speed, best handling GTO ever made. Just like every other GTO ever made (save the '74) it looked just like every other mid-sized Pontiac, and just like every other GTO ever made, it was towards the top of the competitors in price (despite costing no more than the more crude, less refined, and far more questionably assembled Pontiac Firebird Trans Am with the WS6 Ram Air package.

 

Chevy didn't make any 427 Camaros in the '70's. And yes, the Z/28's LT-1 could more than keep up with a 400 Firebird. But that was a Camaro, wasn't it? But I can agree that from '73/'74 through '79, Firebirds were faster than Camaros - some years, not most years, not every year. In 1980 Trans Ams became Z/28 bait again.

 

How True!

The Camaro's functioning rear opening hood scoop with flaps that opened when you snapped the accelerator to the floor (I still remember the 1st time I saw that to this day! ) was way cooler than the Trans Am's turbo V8s.

The 210 horse 345 lbs/ft of torque in the Turbo 4.9 should have made mincemeat of the 195 horse, 285 lbs/ft of torque Z28, but the Z28 with the 4 speed easily kept the auto-only turbo at bay, though not exactly out gunning it.

T/A motor over rated, maybe?

 

It wasn't over rated, it just had that torque available in an extremely narrow rev range. Off the top of my head, the Turbo 4.9 had a midrange sweet spot of 400 or 500 rpm, and then just fell flat on it's face beyond that.

 

No, more like run a dead heat. The 400 Ram Air was a 13.8 car, according to Philip Gunnel's book on the Firebird. The LT1 did like 13.9 stock. Still not fast enough.

Oh? And in 1970-72 the 455 didn't kick Camaro's butt? Let's be clear: from 1968-1979 the Firebird KILLED the Camaro in performance off the showroom floor. It looked better, it handled better, the only thing it didn't do is sell better because it was more expensive. When Pontiac was told they weren't allowed to beat Chevrolet's pants off anymore and everybody had to go 305cid, that's when the 4.9 Turbo V8 was used. It would have been successful eventually had GM not cut off funding and closed the Pontiac Motor Division factory.

Pontiac was forced by Roger Smith (idiot) to use the Chevrolet block because the motor divisions were being eliminated at GM. That's when the Firebird became a Camaro clone. Still, it had better styling and was a more premium car.

And 80-82 are about the only years it ever happened. In 1993 the Chevrolet Motor Division bit the dust too. It is now called GM Powertrain and uses the corporate block LSx or Gen III if you want. Better engines, but the elimination of the competing motor divisions at GM was a major mistake and the pivotal chapter in the company's demise.

 

Didn't you just post that the LT-1 Z/28's were faster. I've seen faster and slower times than the ones you have for both of them. I was arguing your point that Firebirds were always faster than Camaros, which I still disagree with - and it sounds like you do too.

Anyway, I don't want to pee all over the 2nd gen Firebird because I'm a 2nd gen Firebird enthusiasts as well.

But it's too bad Pontiac couldn't keep and further develop the Turbo 4.9, for their own use. It would have made the 3rd gen Firebirds, "real" Firebirds to me.

BTW, here's some trivia, which 2nd gen Firebird could outhandle a '79, WS6, T/A 6.6, Trans Am?







...a '79, WS6, T/A 4.9, Trans Am. The lighter 301 block made the difference.

 

If they had produced the 4.9 a few years later, they would have taken advantage of the TPI and computer controlled ignition. That would have made the 4.9 a monster with better heads. It had a great borexstroke ratio, and the weight savings would have been gravy. Alas, it is all history now.

 

If Pontiac were allowed to do to the 301 what Buick did to the 231 V-6, I shudder to think how fast that car would have been. Especially for the mid to late 80s.

 

Lets not forget the 89 TA, that was slow too... especially the one with the Turbo and Pace Car Stickers.
I don't care how much any of us love the Camaro (I've owned close to 20 over the years) as far as I'm concerned Pontiac built the best F-bodies overall hands down.

 

I don't think I can take sides in this debate - I'm entirely too compromised.

 

Everything you've posted so far is true, save one little item.

Pontiac was never told they couldn't beat Chevrolet anymore. General Motors simply phased out what they felt was engine overlap in the late 70s. Chevrolet took over volume engines, Oldsmobile's 403 took over for large displacement engines, and Pontiac's 400 was restricted to only the Trans Am as the engine was phased out.


Actually, that wasn't it. Chevrolet was used because of pollution standards. !st Chevrolet engines were subsituted for all GM cars going to California. Then Chevrolet became the standard issue V8 engine outside of Cadillac across the board. Also, Chevrolet sold nearly half of all General Motors vehicles, so it made sense from a smog certification and investment cost perspective.

Did it suck? You bet.

Do I wish they hadn't done it? Of course. I liked when GM was essentially 5 car companies that only shared inner structures.

Did it make business sense? Unfortunately.... it did.

Gotta disagree with you on that one.

First, competing divisions basically canibalized each other.
Second, I'd say the fact that we've had a proliferation of new brands in the US, along with most all of those brands offering better quality than GM had (till the last couple of years), topped off with GM walking away from passenger cars and investing heavily in trucks & SUVs, all had a far and away bigger role than just going to standardized engines.

 

Gotta add a couple of qualifyers to this.

79 Trans Ams with the last T/A 6.6s weighed in just under 3700 pounds.
When the turbo V8s came out, the car weighed just over 3800 pounds.
The 455SD Trans Ams weighed...... just over 3800 pounds.


The engine block itself wasn't any lighter than the T/A 6.6 because all the metal that was taken out to create the regular 4.9 (for everyone else, the 4.9 had thinner cylinder castings and lighter heads to save weight) was more than made up for with the turbo version through various reinforcements. Then on top of that, you had the added weight of the turbo and it's plumbing. In the end, the engine itself was as heavy as the 400, and the whole engine/tranny assembly was even heavier than the 455's. Ouch!

The real reason the later blown 2nd gen T/As handled better is because Pontiac put some money into improving the suspension, including standard (and bigger) 245/60s BF Goodrich radial T/As (of course) that was as big as Corvettes were running.

The last T/As were the best handling of all 2nd gen F-bodies, but it wasn't because of lighter weight.




I don't think there's too many people beyond 70s Trans Am fans and a few not-so-old-timers who even know there was once a Firebird with a turbocharged V8 (Formula had it as well), so here's a good place to get a quick education.

http://www.2gta.com/1980ta.html

 

I was referring to the normally aspirated '79 T/A 4.9, NOT the '80/'81 Turbo 4.9.

Off the top of my head, I think the turbo motor had some reinforcement put back into the block, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I've got to question your dates there. While the second gen Firebirds may have out performed their Camaro counterparts, that statement simply cannot be made for the first gens, particularly in the handling department. Firebird never had any consistancy in Trans Am, and in 1968 Mark Donohue dominated the series in a Z/28. I'd also question the early 70's Z/28s not handling as well as the Trans Ams, but then I am not as familiar with second gens. I will agree that the 2nd gen Trans Ams and Formulas were badass. What kid in 1977-80 did not want a black Trans Am with t-tops?

 

Again, a qualifyer is needed here.

The N/A 4.9 V8 in the Trans Am wasn't a run of the mill 4.9 (all this nostalgic talk...and a bit of boredom... promted me to look up the history of T/As ). The Tran's Am's 4.9 actually was the same block that was used on the Turbo version. Reinforcements and all.... so no real weight savings over the 400, but much better fuel mileage. Don't worry, I didn't know that either.

The T/A's 4.9 also had the T/A 6.6's special camshaft as well as Buick's Electronic Spark Control, and a 4 barrel carb. Even more facinating is that the engine was partially based on the 5.0 Pontiac developed (and abandoned) when they 1st attemped to get into the Trans Am racing series at the begining of the decade. The 4.9 was also a "credit option" on the Trans Am. Unlike the original "Smokey & The Bandit", the newer T/A needed nitrous to spin the tires in the movie's sequel. Despite this, the 4.9 engine, believe it or not, was underrated. It was advertized at 150 horsepower, but it actually put out about 170.



Trivia: All Pontiac's later engines (the 389, the 400, & the 350) all shared the same 3.75" stroke. The 455 was designed for torque over horsepower, and some versions of the 400 actually outpowered it in horsepower numbers. All Pontiac V8 engines share the exact same dimensions. The 455SD used the same camshaft from the Ram Air 400.

The 4.9 had the exact same bore & stroke as Ford's 5.0 (4.00" X 3.00").

Being that Ford did the exact same things (cam, heads, 4 barrel carb etc..) to their 5.0 in the 80s that the Trans Am's 4.9 had done back in 1980, and the Mustang GT had only 157 horses in '82 (w/ the 2 barrel) and just 175 horses when they switched to a 4, one can only imagine the jump GM would have had if the Pontiac V8 engine made it to the 3rd gen Trans Ams. The 80s would have likely been a less lopsided performance race.